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Wikileaks should be shut down
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frankiej4189
Nov 30, 2010
15 votes
7 debaters
7
3
2
2


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4
Yes


frankiej4189
Nov 30, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I'm all for free public information like Politician's pay and full copies of proposed bills, resolutions, propositions, etc...most things that our government does should be public knowledge. The line should be drawn, however, when it comes to releasing military sensitive material. Anything that compromises the safety of soldiers should have an air-tight cover on it.

Wikileaks crossed the line, IMHO, with their newest North Korea cable. The cable, which is now complete public knowledge has US contingency plans, goes into deatil about the relationship between China and North Korea, and jeopardizes allied Intelligence outlets. Especially at a time when military action between North and South Korea is an extremely real possibility.

Wikileaks needs to be shut down. It should be (if not already) illegal to release these things

 
shadovvelite
Dec 01, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: changetheworld Show

But what about the files that contain information on informants and other secret documents that put others life in danger? I know that people really dislike the war we are in, but by exposing things like that they are only prolonging the fighting (at least how long the US wil be fighting). I agree that the corruption is out of control, but there is a better way to handle it rather than putting innocent lives in jeopardy.

 
stof
Dec 01, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
- Certain critical information might cause conflict between countries.
- It will be an important source for terrorists to analyze and identify information about weakness and strength points of any country.
- Some conflicts that were solved by diplomatic efforts might appear at surface again because of the leak of intelligence reports.
- A threat to home land security.
- Any act of revealing information about military, intelligence, security… by a non-civilian person should be considered as treason.

These are enough reasons that make that website a threat to every one of us.


 
stof
Dec 02, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I’ve been on wikileaks several times, i read published reports on military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, if it’s not only showing the communication methods between soldiers, and soldier and HQ, it is showing lots of military tactics that are easy to detect, now if I can do that then any terrorist can and maybe more, and there are some analysts that values that kind of info…
I wouldn’t care about scandals… I mean if they found any they should publish it for the sake of community, I’d like to have someone else who controls after the government, but there is a slim line between revealing scandals and revealing sensitive data…
Now about the part when you say that every government Israel for example is know to be spying on even friendly and allied countries, god only knows what if these information are revealed Israel might lose several allies… if governments knew already the US government wouldn’t apologize recently to many countries about some information that might be revealed…
Even though it might seem exiting to be aware of what’s really going on, but this thing can not bring only the good things.


 
stof
Dec 03, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gatorsf80 Show

Israel have the reputation of spying even on friendly countries and collecting every kind of Intel about them: I don’t blame them for that: the reason why Israel do that is because they learned from history not to trust anyone.
If any Israeli document happened to be published in wikileaks it might cause a huge problem.

For the part of ignorance yes, I’d like to know everything about my government, my army, my intelligence… but what I want more is that my foe don’t have info about everything about my government, my army, my intelligence… because then my knowledge wouldn’t worth anything. Regardless of the fact that counter spying involves uncovering false data to lure the enemy, which in the case of wikileaks will apply on citizens as well, there will be real documents published on wikileaks with false data I can assure you that.

It doesn’t matter if we change our tactics, because through our ancient tactics: terrorist can develop their own tactics, I don’t want that I want terrorists to stay ignorant even if that means I have to stay ignorant.


 
stof
Dec 03, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: sisko52744 Show

Hhhh, you should hear me speaking it, it’s even more confusing and funny.
Actually improving my English one of the reasons why I’m on this website, so I hope you guys bear me a bit.
On wikileaks, on wikilogs link (really hard to miss), you will find lots of reports of many soldiers describing state, operations… it’s hard for me to localize a particular one because there are just too many, but I can assure you that it’s a huge source of info, for example there is this report about finding dead bodies: through this report one can analyze and find the protocol soldiers use in such a case, a terrorist might find an opportunity to ambush soldiers in this case, there was also this report about air support request using special military words…
I just remembered something I wanted to tell gatorsf80 but i forgot: changing tactics cost loads of money.


 
frankiej4189
Dec 08, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dkturner Show

Can you really say with certainty that you're fully aware of the ramifications that come with Wikileaks exposing military information? Its a given that none of us really can but i'd have to imagine that in the most general sense, exposing military secrets and intelligence at a time of war would do more harm than good to the generals and soldiers fighting would it not?

The only way i can possibly spin it so that Wikileaks isn't doing anything bad is for me to think that the things Wikileaks has STOLEN from our government/armed forces are outdated things/tactics/contingency plans/intelligence sources..etc.. that are no longer relevant to the dwindling war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Since neither of us know this to be true or false, it would seem logical to think that receiving confidential government cables that highlight specifics of the ongoings of the military at a time of war is at thevery least potentially life threatening.

 
frankiej4189
Dec 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dkturner Show

Key Point: Isn't the corruption behind Operation Iraqi Freedom common knowledge by now? Do you really think Wikileaks releasing these cables is going to change anything besides tightening up government information security? I highly doubt that my government is going to have a moral epiphany and start divulging things they normally wouldn't.

Point Two: Asange isn't exposing weaknesses in Government Intelligence to appeal to some higher calling, or to help out the United States of America. He's doing it because he (rightfully) believes people shouldn't be lied to and because he wants attention. If he really cared about the U.S. he wouldn't be releasing things that are very easily life threatening.

Let me make myself CRYSTAL clear, i FULLY agree with him releasing things about political corruption, his Bank of America cable that should be coming out soon, bad things that our elected officials are doing, those things are fine. Those are the things that need to be stopped. Those are the things that NEED to be exposed. But anything that puts US Military lives in danger is crossing the line. There is no "balance" there. No "greater good" nonsense. Just now learning that he's not American (Swedish i believe) i realize that the things he's released are not treasonous but that doesn't make them any less damaging, and it doesn't make his exposure any less of a betrayal to the United States Military.

 
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11
No


changetheworld
Nov 30, 2010
3 convinced
Rebuttal
From what I have read on wikileaks, the documents they release are usually associated with some kind of corrupt or unethical action of the US Government. Thus, I do not think they should be shut down.

 
gatorsf80
Dec 01, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Wiki-leaks does not release highly sensitive documents. Even if wikileaks could do so, or did, It's not wiki-leaks job to enforce the safety of secret documents. If anything, it does a favor to governments by showing their security holes. Let's not be naive to think that information released was something that other government did not already knew. and if other government knew, it's not a far stretch to assume that those governments that support terrorism would not share the message with the terrorists themselves.

What wiki leaks does, is killing conspiracy theories that media likes to spin due to lack of information. it puts punctuation in otherwise confusing media world, where everyone blogs without having their facts straights.

The truth shall set you free

 
sisko52744
Dec 01, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
I have not followed the wikileaks story closely, but from what I know, it demonstrates what the government knows and doesn't tell its own population (that is not relevant to national security), and also the discrepancies between it's official story and the truth. I would argue that it provides a tool to keep the government in check.

Of course, there are several points listed against its use. I will try and address some of them quickly. Governments have contingency plans for EVERYTHING. Even potentially poorly staffed governments like North Korea would know this. I am interested in which informants the leaks have jeopardized, can you provide a link to the leaks that demonstrate this?

Lastly, I am unconvinced by the list of POSSIBLE dangers. There are many possible dangers I could list by cars being legal, but that in itself is not an argument for making them illegal. The difference with cars, is that there are examples where the negative possibilities became reality (like car accidents). If there was no benefit to the leaks, then the possibility alone for bad effects might seem reasonable. However, as I said, I argue that they are useful.

 
changetheworld
Dec 04, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/iraq-secret-war-files-wikileaks-special

Please watch that. Then tell me whether we would be better off not knowing about our own governments actions.

 
dkturner
Dec 08, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

(a) Not one person has been reported killed as a result of Wikileaks, despite all the huffing from various governments.

(b) Thousands of people have been killed on the basis of outright deception from the US government.

(c) This could have been avoided had Wikileaks been around ten years earlier.


The greatest good for the greatest number, anyone?

Of course, the _real_ outrage started the minute Wikileaks made public something we always knew: diplomats and politicians are childish, power-hungry, arrogant, thieving parasites.

 
changetheworld
Dec 08, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/assange-rape-accuser-cia-ties

As you can see, our government doesn't mind deceiving its people. Do you think that the major news channels do not know about the truth? Did you know that it is not illegal for the US government to have them broadcast false, manipulative news?

Everyone who knows that their government is this ruthless is obligated to expose the regimes corruption and fight for what they believe in, even if it means giving up everything that is important to you.

And that is exactly was Julian Assange is doing. Thats what wikileaks is doing. And thats what you should be doing as well.

 
gatorsf80
Dec 02, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: stof Show

Not understanding your connection to Israel. All countries spy on others, this is the only way to get info that other countries don't want you to know. Embassies were established to spy on other nations, Diplomats, foreign agents do the same. wiki-leaks actually benefited Israel, and embarrassed other nations who take Israel as foe.

Ignorance is not a bliss. Think of of military strategy as playbook. If somebody finds out your plays, you change them. No harm done.

 
sisko52744
Dec 02, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: stof Show

I am genuinely not trying to be condescending when I say this stof, but your grammar is very poor, especially in the later portion of your last response. I'm afraid most of it just confuses me. However, you do speak about revealing sensitive military information. I think maybe I wasn't clear in my last response. I have heard several people claim that wikileaks has done actual harm, that people are in jeopardy, that it will lead to the apocalypse, etc. However, what I would like is an EXAMPLE, not a generalization. If you can provide a link to an online reference that demonstrates the harm that wikileaks has done, I'm interested. However, general accusations are not convincing, at least not for me.

 
gatorsf80
Dec 03, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: stof Show

If wiki leaks could uncover everything about the governments, there wouldn't be wiki-leaks or the government. Wiki leak is not powerful organization, it just a place on the internet for whistle blower to share info. Think of wikileaks as embassy that does not belong to any single nation. In terms of sensitive data used, i haven't read anything on the news that jeopardizes info about our troop locations, quantity, operation, our military strategy, double agents, spies... Show me which info our enemies can use against us that they do not already use, what new tool does wiki-leaks provide?

And if real and fake documents can be published, do we think that terrorists are smart enough to tell the difference, but we are not?



 
dkturner
Dec 08, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

The key point here is that the war shouldn't have been happening in the first place. What is revealed is callous disregard for civilian casualties and general incompetence in its prosecution. Knowing these details, the public should have an altogether clearer perspective on the consequences of war, and therefore be less willing to cede authority to their governments to engage in conflicts (and more aggressive about getting them to pull out).

Point two: if Wikileaks can get it, then the "bad guys" sure as hell can too.

I concede that the leaks are potentially life-threatening. My argument is that, on the balance, they do more good than harm.

 
dkturner
Dec 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

Key point: It's not about what government does, it's about what the people do. There's a big difference between an open secret (we all knew the government was up to no good) and documentary evidence (the cables prove it). I'm hoping that the publication of this information changes voting patterns and hence political behaviour. Although the sad reality is that it may just prove another open secret - that democracy is a farce.

Point two: Why should an Australian care about the US? (Okay, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek). But your argument here is weak, based on hypothetical injury that might happen, weighed against the very real injury of a government concealing bad behaviour from its voters. My brother (who disagrees with me strongly) says: watch this space. Watching and waiting. But I think the danger to innocents is vastly overstated, if not wholly imaginary.

I understand and respect your view that putting soldiers' lives in danger cannot be justified. However I must respectfully disagree. They have taken an oath to serve and to obey orders. The moral culpability lies with those giving the orders. We now know exactly how reckless those individuals are, not only with civilians but also with their own soldiers. Having the information does not change the facts; it allows us to do something about them.

 


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