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Should we make the pay checks of teachers depend on the performance of their students?
Education

lsdtalejandro
Aug 05, 2010
13 votes
19 debaters
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3
The peychecks of teachers SHOULD depend on the performance of their students


larryt700
Aug 06, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dexiouz Show

You know students are LUCKY these days if they are even able to take an art class. Many districts have shut down art, music and drama due to a lack of funding. I think auto mechanics, home economics and wood shop are still in force because you have to have something for the kids who you know aren't going to college. At least they learn some semblance of a trade.

Something that amazes me these days is this. I recently worked LAPD Jeopardy, which is a program for at risk youth and I actually put on a uniform and went to truant children's homes with school faculty and administrators. I am shocked at the number of children and parents for that matter that have already resigned to the fact and accepted that they are never going to amount to much educationally and financially. One young lady was skipping school to assist her mom as a maid in order for her to prepare for her future.... Now that is just plain sad if you ask me... I have nothing against maids or any other profession but at the very least, young people should broaden their horizons enough to at least have some choices....

 
lsdtalejandro
Aug 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rules:
= We will have an observer in every room to make sure that the teacher is teaching

= A different person who has no connection with the teacher will encode the grades

=Argument=
This will prevent bad teachers from failing to properly do their job, Anyone who has at least finished High School can say that they have had at least 10 incredibly bad teachers who scream at you for asking question, is really bad at explaining and simply does not care if the students pass or fail. Since those teachers only teach for the money then making their paychecks depend on how well their students perform will make sure that they teach properly

 
larryt700
Aug 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: teachme Show

Additionally, schools tend to 'pass' students in order to meet an undisclosed quota in order to receive state and federal funding, plus those bad apples tend to be placed in certain specific classes with certain specific teachers for whatever reason. Should those teachers be punished too for having to deal with the 'problem children'?

 
ashlei
Aug 07, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
YES! They should to some degree. It's not fair to get a poor teacher. They all teach differently and sometimes they just don't care anymore.

 
jsolorio
Aug 07, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: teachme Show

You know what I find ridiculous,when a really good student fails a state test and they have to repeat the same class again thanks to the inefficiency of a teacher who couldn't at least teach to state standards.

And talking about students with special disabilities,I think they should be taught different standards and be graded differently according to their ability to learn.

If you're right about one thing is about when a child is not progressing all thing should be considered,including the ability of the teacher to actually teach what is required,and that why they should teach to a STANDARDIZED test.

That's why I think teachers should be paid according to their efficiency.So students like me don't take middle school classes in high school thanks to their science teacher who couldn't cover everything required in the state final.

 
blackkodiak
Aug 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

In his defense, the site does not support italics.

 
larryt700
Aug 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

Aside from the teachers in the classrooms, whom I am not sure are the real problem.... I think moreover it is the beauracracy of school districts who literally waste millions of dollars in taxpayer dollars. It is amazing at how these organizations have become money pits...

 
lsdtalejandro
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

Anyone member of the faculty can sit in and watch the class you know, plus any other faculty member can also encode the grades. Hiring a new employee is not neccesary

 
lsdtalejandro
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

It would not mean that the teachers would work twice as hard it would mean that they would need to work like they are suppose to. A teacher is suppose to make sure the students understand the lessons. when teachers give a test that students are CLEARLY not ready for or when they refuse to answer questions then they are not doing their job or making the lesson clear enough.

 
lsdtalejandro
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Im not talking about just high school I meant high school and everything below it meaning K1 until the end of high school which is why I said "anyone who has at FINISHED high school" and yes bad teachers DO come along and make it hard for even a really smart student to pass.

 
janelliebean
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Teachers are paid to teach the students. The family of the student pays money for his/her education to the school. The school pays money to the teachers.

Instructors (not including PE or Music) who are doing their job and helping the school's overall student academic average should be paid higher wages by the school. Teachers that show no improvement in the education of their students should be paid lower. Although the student may be the problem, not the teacher, the teacher always has the option of suggesting a struggling student program, taking them out of an extracurricular activity, study hall or individual help. If the student continues to be a problem, then the school can try to move the student to another class, but if removing a student from a class still shows no improvement, the teacher should have a lower amount pay check.

This would also save money for the school. Instead of decreasing all the teacher's wages in a budget crisis, it can be prevented by paying based on the performance of a teacher's students. There should be a minimum and a maximum pay check price, which can be adjusted according to amount of improvement and/or level of student performance. By changing teacher's wage amounts, the school does not have to lay off any teachers in hard times or decrease all pay checks.

 
janelliebean
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

What if the student is unable to "invest a little more in themselves" due to extracurricular activities or the environment of the classroom. The teacher has all the right to contact an administrator or the parent to let them know about a student's problems. Or if the student needs extra help, the teacher also has the right to individually, or in groups of similar students, guide them through the lessons while the students who some have stated to be highly intelligent can increase their knowledge instead of being dragged down by the students who are falling behind and loweing the student performance average.

 
janelliebean
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

So you agree with my arguement. The "STUDENT" may be having trouble with their schoolwork BECAUSE of these extracurricular activities. This is why teachers should take the initiative and talk about the student's performance, contacting an administrator or the guardian. Because the teacher would want to receive a higher paycheck, the teacher would pay more attention to the students, striving to increase the value of their overall education of that class.

 
frankiej4189
Aug 11, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

Spoken like my Dad.

 
janelliebean
Aug 11, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

I understand your point, but the resolution we are debating is about whether the teacher's paycheck should depend on the performance of his/her students. You're digressing to a topic about how activities outside of school affect education. I simply brought extracurriculars up because someone else stated that schoolwork is more important, which is true. I never said that extracurriculars were more important than the education itself for the students.

To refute your arguement, the smartest people *I* know, who are remarkably brilliant, try to do everything they can. They strive to get the most out of school and broaden their knowledge outside of school as well. You said that someone cannot get through a form of high education with "my teacher sucks." Did I ever say they would? No. In fact, most people know that students should get close to their teachers and counselors for recommendations for college. If teachers are paid depending on their performance, they would also try to help their students and become friends. You talked about the importance of education. Well, would it not be important for the students who go to school and are taught by these teachers 5 days a week, no matter how "crappy," to be comfortable with one another and learn things from one another? The bad teachers can be made into good teachers if it makes their paychecks a more friendly sight, and students will actually learn things.

 
janelliebean
Aug 11, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

I completely agree that teachers should teach because it's their passion. Well, you said also because it's their job. However, wouldn't a "potentially higher paycheck" also mean that their students are doing well? Though you may see it as teachers trying to get a higher paycheck, not that teachers are teaching because of their passion, you can see that teachers would be doing "their job."
I never said that there should be a separate person sitting in the classroom. I said that if a teacher notices a student struggling or falling behind, they should contact the guardian or the office about it (and they would probably want to because of their paycheck).

 
janelliebean
Aug 12, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

I do not assume that these "bad teachers" are bad because they aren't getting money for their job.

The best teachers I have ever been educated by were passionate people about their job, the education for their students and the learning environment.

Instead of asking ourselves whether it is unfair for bad teachers to be receiving poor paychecks, let's ask "Wouldn't it be a good thing if great teachers get better wages?" After all, they want to teach their students.

Instead of saying that bad teachers get decreased wages, what about teachers that do a good job get higher wages? I disagree that teachers would lower their grading standards, because if students do not know what they are doing wrong, they would do poorly on exams like the STAR test or district exams, which, if this resolution were true, would most likely affect the paycheck.

Healthy competition is always important for the growing student, so that they do their best in school, though some may not try at all. These "some may not try at all" students would not help a teacher, or the student's future which my opponent also takes priority in, so the teacher would try to help this student perform in at least the proficient level.

 
janelliebean
Aug 12, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
haha isnt anyone else going to debate this side? lol

 
teachme
Aug 13, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

Bravo...well said, BK! :)

 
jsolorio
Aug 16, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

How could I when didn't even what was expected of the test and for your information nobody in my class passed.

 
boredinschool
Mar 01, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

I have personally been "taught" by three teachers who did nothing but assign work without actually teaching anything, one of whom taught a health class. (which I will admit is hard to teach convincingly anyway) However, the other two were teachers of advanced courses, the worst one actually did refuse to answer questions, would reply to any query with "go look it up" or "you should already know this" and would refer students with bad grades to other teachers for tutoring rather than teach them herself. These teachers do exist, and I have been fairly lucky since the best teachers tend to gravitate towards the advanced classes.

 
+ Add Argument

10
The paychecks of teachers SHOULD NOT depend on the performance of their students


frankiej4189
Aug 07, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Larry why dont you post like that more often? You seem like a smart guy up until you put on your ALL CAPS gloves and leak out your "Libtard" catch phrases.

You're obviously very capable of producing a legitimate opinion on most things and the fact that your views are definately more conservative is even better! It would be nice to have more Right-Wing voices of reason on this site.

 
blackkodiak
Aug 11, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: janelliebean Show

I don't know what makes you think I disagree with anything you have said here, aside from the first sentence.

I am simply stating, that in my view, people who more frequently adopt an external locus of control will underachieve.

A person will never get through law school, med school, post-graduate school or any other form of higher education that requires discipline if they fall back on the "my teacher/classroom was crap and now I'm screwed" argument. I am making a case for taking some ownership in your own educational capital. Crack open a book and figure it all out for yourself. What is your time worth to you? What is your education worth to you? What sacrifices are worth either? If you think your extra-curricular activities should be a priority, then great, more power to you! But don't complain when you find something else needs to give in order to keep your education afloat.

The smartest people I know, who, in my vanity, I also consider some of the brightest minds this world has to offer, did their best learning outside the classroom because they were passionate about the world. To them, it never mattered that their teacher was crap or they had band practice or whatever. They took charge of their own education, and their own lives, and didn't use the inadequecies of the formal institutions as excuses or crutches for their own errors.

 
teachme
Aug 05, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

Ridiculous...can a teacher be held responsible for students who fail to do their homework? Many of these same students have parents who really do not care, and take absolutely no responsibility for their child's education.

What about children with obvious learning disabilities? Oftentimes teachers are fighting for a student to be evaluated for special services, and the administration and/or parents get in the way. Since these services cost the city/town money, and may refect poorly on the school...the principal is more concerned about their reputation and the reputation of the school, than the needs of the student

Then there is the mandated curriculum, teaching to the test, and so on. Too many variables that influence what is being taught, even how subjects are being taught..that are beyond the control of the teacher. You must remember..."It takes a whole village to raise a child." There will always be a few bad apples, just as in every profession, but if a child is not progressing...all things must be considered.

 
gatorsf80
Aug 11, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
I'd say it's a good idea with bad consequences.
Here is why:

Breaking teachers into two major categories, those who like to teach, or those who do it for other reasons.

Those, who like to teach, don't usually do it for money. Sure, they would like a raise, who wouldn't, but without a raise, they would still be good teachers. Initially there is nothing wrong with giving them a raise for performance. Until you take into consideration the other group. Teachers who teach for other reasons than liking to teach, are not that much more likely to teach better with higher funds as incentive. Since it is interest/passion not money that makes teachers be good.

Now let's say they system is implemented. You'll see good teachers get paid more - Poor teachers get paid less. Consequences will lead to less poor teachers being in the system. It's a good thing, until you realize that good teachers will have to have much more students in their class, diluting the attention they give to pupils, that made them good in the first place. So you take out the bad teachers, and make less teachers, and make Good teachers worse.

Better alternative would be to pay more for good teachers, while keeping the salary flat for poor teachers. With so much bureaucracy, and scare resources -- tough to do, without cutting funds for other curriculum programs.

Another problem, is how to measure performance... Test scores on standardized subjects? In this incentive world, teachers would only be concerned for their pupil's test scores, leaving other valuable information that is not measured in test scored. So while the kids memorize how to do well in the test, their other comprehension skills will suffer

 
againstthecurrents
Aug 15, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Hey. I went to school for education, have student taught, and long term substitute taught.
My feeling is that students should be tracked with measurable results throughout their educational experience.
Some teachers say that "if I get a class of dummies I suffer".
This is true, not pc, but accurate. So why not track these kids and give performance incentives to teachers who have these students perform above --their-- average.

Teachers are not private sector technocrats who make sure gogs and doodles do what they are supposed to. They deal with people, and people have 1000 and 1 issues from esl, tseol, 501 forms, iep, etc. etc.
and now each room is "inclusive" meaning students with mental disabilities are mainstreamed.

Still,
I have seen horrrrrible "teachers" who milk the system, suckle the union, and hang on as long as possible blocking new talent.

So, why not track students and give incentives for better performances of --that-- child?

 
frankiej4189
Aug 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

Haha so you're plan is to (with an already suffocated education budget) higher ANOTHER person and then pay them?

 
larryt700
Aug 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Absolutely not! Then you would have teachers that work twice as hard, in low income areas dealing with multiple languages, attitudes and levels of students, getting paid much less than the teachers that work elsewhere, doing half the work.

 
larryt700
Aug 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

Ten, really? Are you still in high school?

 
dexiouz
Aug 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
NO
Due to variation in the intelligent quotient of students,ability to understand certain courses may vary.For instance,it is assumed that science students excel better in mathematics than arts students.So tell me does it mean that a teacher"s salary will increase if the science students say forty does well in his course?If so,tell me what happens when the number of arts students is more proportional to the science students who may now be say ten out ofof thirty students where the rest are arts.
Also,some students dont do well in certain courses as such they likely may be unable to easily discern a new subject when introduced to them.
If this topic should be encouraged,teachers are likely to award marks to their students in order to reach the standard.When this happens there is likely to be an automatic drop in the educational standard of the said region.

 
teachme
Aug 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Larry, when I mentioned the term "bad apples," I meant "bad teachers," not children.

It is very true that the dynamics of a classroom make all the difference in overall student performance. Some students are performing at a very slow rate, others have behavioral issues, and many more are challenged, both academically and behaviorally.

All's it takes is one student's consistently poor behavior, to make it more difficult for the rest to learn. Teachers have their hands tied, in terms of ways to discipline, and can not send the child out of the room on a regular basis. Schools just don't have those kinds of resources.

If the child really needs a special setting and school...again, it goes back to whether, or not, the administration and parents are willing to have the child evaluated. Chances are, they will be uncooperative...so the child, teacher, and class will inevitably suffer...not the best environment for learning. If a teacher has a top class, more than likely, she or he will not be dealing too often with these kinds of issues...good teaching and learning can then take place...on a more consistent basis.

In fact, it's not uncommon for a teacher to be hit with four, five, six...even as many as ten, or more, major behavior problems (and they are constantly feeding off of each other) during a school year. In these cases, a poor administrative decision was obviously made, when the class was created. The teacher could be brilliant, but her or his ability to teach will be compromised, as will the learning environment. Under these circumstances, the teacher has been treated unfairly and should not be penalized. It is the administration that should be held accountable.

 
teachme
Aug 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

Funny, think of all the "bad apples" on Wall Street, who have wrecked our economy, and continued to receive bonuses with our bail out money. Tell me, Alejandro, what do their paychecks reflect? They may be the reason why good teachers have lost their jobs, and special educational services for children, like After School programs, are being eliminated.

Are teachers to be blamed for that too?!? Should their paychecks be cut, when a needy child begins to fall back, because they are not getting the extra services they were once offered?

Every profession needs to be regulated...not just education...and teachers are not the only players in the education system.

 
blackkodiak
Aug 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Exactly. This is a well-documented failure of the proposed system. It's more than just a question of teacher dishonesty, it's an issue of economics and the motivations that dictate teacher behaviours.

 
blackkodiak
Aug 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

Reading this, I think you lack an objective perspective.

If you have the time to look over my debate histories, I'm usually the first person to complain about teacher incompetance, but my issues are more with comprehension and methodology than motivation or attitude. I do not think many teachers go around as you describe, no matter where in the world you are from.

 
blackkodiak
Aug 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jsolorio Show

Perhaps the student should invest a little more in themselves, and less in the so-described-as-inefficient teacher.

 
soultwister
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Certainly not, for there will always be difference amongst the studentry, some are very intelligent that could easily catch up while others are, let's say OHERWISE. its gonne be unfair to the teachers who would certainly teach at the top of their lungs, if unfortunately he/she will be assigned to the OTHERWISE students...

 
thales
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: blackkodiak Show

It does support bold.

 
frankiej4189
Aug 10, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: janelliebean Show

As a STUDENT, learning and schoolwork is the most important thing. Superceding Sports, Drama club, extra-curricular activities...

 
frankiej4189
Aug 11, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: janelliebean Show

I don't know how you got that out of what i said, but to respond to your argument i would say that a teacher should...

a) be able to recognize the problems that their students are having without hiring a separate person to sit in the classroom

b) should/and does do so because it is their job/passion, not because of a potentially higher paycheck

 
blackkodiak
Aug 12, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: janelliebean Show

You assume that bad teachers are bad teachers because they are not financially motivated to be good teachers.

I disagree with this.

I believe bad teachers are bad teachers because they are in need of something more than money, be it recognition for their efforts, a less abusive work environment, introspective capacity or even just sheer intelligence and knowledge.

In any case, I don't believe the solution lies in "making their paychecks a more friendly sight", and that pursuing that course of motivation will only encourage teachers to lower their own grading standards to ensure that the performance of their students is overrepresented. Now, student who are taught by teachers with integrity are shortchanged because they are competing with students who are taught by teachers with wavering moral standards for the same positions in post-secondary institutions.

 
revron77
Aug 14, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
IT SHOULD BE FOR THE OVER ALL SCHOOLS PREFORMANCE

 
againstthecurrents
Aug 15, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lsdtalejandro Show

This is a private sector attitude that ignores the fact you are not dealing with merchandise but humans.
Todays classrooms are inclusive meaning --no child-- is left out.
How would your independent grader take into account a child with mild autism?
Would supportive services be included or would they be too subjective?
What if the teacher is using holistic grading methods?


 
normanizsharpe
Aug 16, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
no, while if we hire staff in every class room in every public school then it costs more money, but if money would not be an issue, then the ignorant nijjers would sure be a pain in the butt to deal with, while they suck up possibilities of a willing to learn young student, the teacher has to loose money because of them, no, its wrong

 
whitelily
Aug 17, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Absolutely not. There are too many varying factors that could effect the performance of a student: the student's previous education, the student's at home life, the student's ability at the time to absorb the learning material, ect. The teacher has no control over these influences at all. Moreover, "you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink." If it is a matter of motivation a teacher may try all the conventional methods of stimulation to better the preformance of a problem student or a class. However, failing that, the rest of the responsiblity lies with the parents and the students themselves. There is no way to 'force' a student to learn anymore than is there a method to coerse a horse to drink when it refuses to.

 
iisawesome
Feb 17, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ashlei Show

I agree, sometimes our teachers suck, but you have to admit, sometimes the teacher gets stuck with a class full of morons who wont sit down and work. I do my best to work hard in school, but there are a couple of classes I have where somehow all the kids who sleep in class and never do their work get stuck in the same period, and you can hardly expect the teacher to fix that, no matter how dood they are.

 
sandra1314sundae
Feb 19, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
how do you measure the performance of a student? those that mean I can get a high pay check because I teach a genius? or just because a student spaced out or didn't improve much you got a low pay check? that's unfair.

moreover, this would start fights and pressure, of which we don't want. teachers may cheat and give students the answer just to get more $$, and that's not what we want. we want students to learn, not messing up their teacher's money problem.

 
sandra1314sundae
Feb 19, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ashlei Show

the fact is, sometimes it just happens so that a group of genius get a poor teacher. than you have to give this poor teacher a huge pay check. that's not fair. just because we get a poor teacher doesn't' mean we don't learn.

 


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