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Is Jesus God?
Religion

ahmed71
Jul 05, 2010
18 votes
16 debaters
3
1


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9
No, he never said from his mouth in the bible that he is God.He was praying to God!


larryt700
Jul 06, 2010
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Oh boy! Wow, nice arguments... However, I have heard MANY naturalists say, "I and the Earth are the same. We are one." So, you are taking words out of context and misinterpreting them. I do believe that priests and many holy leaders proclaim, "I am one with GOD." Which merely means that 'I' am created in his likeness and I am aligned with his purposes and will do.... Blah blah blah basically as he wishes.

So this means Jesus claims he is GOD? Not at all and quite to the contrary. We are one in the same means merely that he is aligned with GOD's purpose. You cannot say that naturalists are soil, rock or water can you?

 
larryt700
Jul 06, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ryanthornton Show

Was there a point? So the Bible is literal in its meaning? An eye for an eye in the old testament is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the new testament... So, taking things out of the context of their intended meaning does truly apply here. Sure Christ's deity is established in the Bible but it is up to the believer to establish within themselves whether he is the 'same' as God or a deity of a level below God. Make sense?

 
ahmed71
Jul 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Jesus never said in the Bible to anyone to worship him nor that he is God in the flesh! from where the Christians get this belief? some times they call him the Son of God and Sometimes they call him God. while in the Bible he never called himself God but he was calling himself the Son of Man over 80 times in the Bible.

 
jonjax71
Jul 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Like the majority of fables and events of the buybull, old and new testaments, they are derived from writings that pre-date even the prologue of the bable by centuries. Declarations of being god or the son/daughter of god as the 10 commandments, virgin births, resurrections, genesis, messiahs/saviours armageddon et al have been written about dating back to the earliest civilizations' documentations explaining the world and mankind existance

 
larryt700
Jul 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ryanthornton Show

So? Your argument is the same type of argument people make all the time about the Bible. The Klan takes things out of context to further their agenda. Timothy McVeigh did the same when he committed his crime. Many people misinterpret and take certain passages literally in order to further their agenda. The Bible outlines a belief just like global warming is a belief. You either believe it or you don't. Even the Bible has contradictions throughout but I would not call someone who says, "I am one with God" a heretic... That seems pretty far fetched to me!

 
againstthecurrents
Oct 13, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: mixendixon Show

spam

 
billmyers
Oct 13, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: mixendixon Show

spam

 
sandra1314sundae
Feb 16, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
he is not god. if he is, than who is Leonardo da Vinci? I bet you he had given more to this world than Jesus.

 
0 convinced
Rebuttal
jesus is the son of god, the one he sent to earth to die for our sins. amen
We serve a mighty god! through jesus christ, the messiah

 
jsmiggins
May 01, 2011
0 convinced
Rebuttal
No, Jesus was not God, he was just a very wise man. I believe in the Gospel of Thomas. Jesus' words were twisted around after his death to make it look like he was the son of God. This is ridiculous of course. Most Christians have no idea that there was actual controversy over what happened in the years following Jesus. Out of this came a pack of lies with the most absurd and unfortunately the most popular being that Jesus was the son of God.

How can something be the son of God? Why would God have a son? If God is eternal, at what point did he decide to have a kid and why? Is Jesus the only son of God? There's a multitude of questions like this you could ask and the final answer that you will come to is that it is silly to think that God has kids. Even asking questions like this early in the church would have gotten you thrown into the fire for heresy. It's no wonder people just went with the program, no matter how crazy it sounded.

Trust in the Gospel of Thomas. Jesus was a wise man. He was also against circumcision because he knew that the last place a knife should be is near a penis. Unfortunately, 2000 years later, most people who profess to worship him still don't hear his words.

 
cartesiandiver995
Feb 26, 2012
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: mixendixon Show

1. It is knowable to a reasonable degree of accuracy that all observable objects exist, but there is no way to explain it with 100% accuracy. Newtonian gravity explains it 99.9999%, Einsteinian relativity 99.999999%, but nothing 100%. Still, the chance that the tree is fake is so small it can be discounted.
2. Quantum mechanics refutes this principle with Uncertainty Principle. You can never know both the position and momentum of an object, if it is real, thus making it not completely real, but an unreal object is imaginary, so it can be assigned as much reality as we want.
3. The chain of causality stretches back infinitely far.
*The HDTV is such a large-scale structure that it is far more complex than a cell.
*god cannot if you are true be even imaginable in the slightest way by us.
*The human took 4,500,000,000 years to evolve. Is that not long enough, given that there are 622,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms of carbon in just 12 grams, and the entire mass of it in the oceans of Earth is far greater, and there are nowhere near that many carbon atoms in one protein, and the sun turns 4 million tons of matter into raw energy every second, times 300,000 squared? Morality takes way less than that to evolve once the human has arisen.
4. Quantum tunneling is perfectly plausible using the laws of physics that apply at quantum scale.
5. Miracles are similar to the famous "Eureka!" made from a random flash of inspiration.
6. This does not matter: the historical accuracy of the surrounding events vs. random problems drying up when this one guy noticed them.
7. *All those who think, are.
*Palsy is not the result of sins, but a very natural brain disorder (or other disorder).
*This could be a falsehood.
*Any old guy could say this falsely.
8. If the Jews believed that Jesus was not the Messiah, despite their teachings, anyone could.
9. This does not stand up if a single one of your previous points is false.
10. Reciprocity: If Jesus was God, He would have told the truth, and said as much. If he was not, he might have falsely said that he was for personal ends.
11. This again depends on the validity of your previous claim.
12. Any one of your initial claims fall, this one falls all the way to the bottom.

 
cartesiandiver995
Feb 27, 2012
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Caleb Dixon Smith Show

1. "I think, therefore I am" is philosophical and open to debate. Laws of physics are what is in question here, and science can never fully arrive at any truth, so truth must be infinitely far away and therefore infinitesimally existent.
2. "The only thing that is perfect is imperfection."
3. There is no way to determine whether the universe, beyond our 13.7-billion-light-year bubble is finite or infinite conclusively. Energy from farther away cannot have reached us in 13.7 billion years. and think about the billions of billions of organic molecules spread all over Earth, and the short times on chemical scales. Eventually some amino acids would form into a peptide chain, and some bases into a short helix, then over time by randomness these peptides would form into a protein. All the energy needed, the sun can provide. Humans cannot replicate the initial conditions in a lab, and can only spend a few years with a few molecules. You apparently cannot grasp the true form of a billion years. About the HDTV: cells have more density of complexity, but the TV has large scale, smooth structures, and no natural process can create these, but a cell is fine especially on its scale being rough.
4. If God could control the process of quantum tunneling, quantum randomness would quickly rise in scale and engulf human sizes.
5. Miracles are again akin to that "Eureka!" Whether that is the result of chance fall of brain signals or caused by God is what is debatable.
6. Bringing back from the dead people is a violation of, you guessed it, your pet law, the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The only room for error is in the word of mouth, apostle to gospel, but that is a LONG chain of word of mouth.
7. *Of course they would do that.
*What sins did he commit? His culture, or jesus's mind, determine that.
*Again, error in word of mouth. Try playing a game of Telephone 100 people long, and you'll get an idea.
8. The Apostle might have seen some of these details in a very wise man preaching in Nazareth, and added the rest to make people think he was the Messiah.

 
Alhadi Almeshaal
Jan 28, 2018
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Jesus
Jesus is a great man .. great messenger .. great prophet.
He is one of the great messengers sent by the same and only one God, the Creator to people over all the human history to call them to know and follow the instructions of their Creator who designed and created them. Jesus had special powers that were endowed to him by God, the Creator to convince people to follow him ..
His opponents tried to kill him, but his and our God, the Creator saved him and lifted him up to a safe and precious place until he will come back to call people again to worship their only one God the Creator at a stage when the first life is coming to an end.

That is Jesus in the hearts and minds of all Muslims .. We love him .. We love his mother Marry ( one of the greatest women In history ) .. We love his message .. And we love all those who believed and supported him and followed exactly his original message. Peace be upon him and our prophet Mohammed and all messengers of the same and only one God , the Creator.


 
+ Add Argument

9
Yes, he is God


ryanthornton
Jul 05, 2010
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ahmed71 Show

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

again in John 8:58, Jesus says "truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

"I am" is undoubtedly a reference to the name of which Yahweh identified himself to Moses in Exodus chapter 3. Which is why in the following verse, the jews immediately pick up stones to throw at him.

These are simply a couple of Christ's self-proclamations of his deity. Furthermore, are the wonders and powers that Christ possessed, such as the power to calm the winds and sea, pardon sins (which only God could possibly do), see into the mind and heart of men, etc.

Other than the Gospels, the epistles clearly and consistently refer to Christ's full deity.

This is an extremely brief overview of where this notion comes from.

 
idiminish
Jul 05, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ahmed71 Show

John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one."

This is a quote from Jesus. That this was even understood by the Jews at the time as a claim of deity is made clear 3 verses later when the Jews point out that He was making Himself equal with God. The title "Son of Man" isn't a divine title, it's a Messianic one. Jesus was presenting Himself as the Jewish Messiah (that is their coming King).

Incidentally, to answer your question about 'where Christians get this belief?' The Bible makes may affirmations that Jesus is God, so if you were to accept the Bible as authoritative, you would come to the conclusion that Jesus is God.

Also, even if Jesus hadn't claimed to be God, wouldn't have meant that He wasn't God, only that He didn't say so. Your argument would, at best, be from silence.

 
ryanthornton
Jul 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Fair enough, however, any priest or holy leaders who claim to be "one with God" is without question guilty of heresy for the Lord says to man - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways." - Isaiah 55:8

Daniel chapter 4 says this of the Lord -
"all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”"

The book of Job is also a clear depiction of the distinction between God and man.

Also, note that no true prophet of the Lord in the biblical scriptures from Genesis to Revelation ever deems himself worthy of doing the work of the Lord. Further, John the baptist specifically notes his unworthiness before the messiah who is to come (Jesus).

It would not be even almost congruent with scripture for even the greatest man to claim any oneness with Yahweh.

I would also like you to address my second example, which is even more clear.



 
ryanthornton
Jul 06, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Seems far fetched? This is a debate on what the bible states about Christ and therefore the bible is the authority in this debate. Opinion about what you would call a man claiming equality with God is hardly relevant.

Taking out of context? Regardless of any individuals personal beliefs, the bible is revolved around the deity of Christ - including the old testament books. This is incomparable to any group of people trying to get away with a specific lifestyle and claim it as biblical.

Furthermore, you do not have to take any scripture "out of context" to find the deity of Christ in the bible. Gospels included.




 
ryanthornton
Jul 07, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: larryt700 Show

Agreed it is the believers decision to believe in Christ as any role in their lives or the bible for that matter. My argument is that the bible is clear that Jesus and God are equal in existence and do not exist without the other.

from philippians:
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."



 
milsaw
Jul 16, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Is jesus cock?

 
atlas101
Aug 26, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
If he existed at all he was God. All else is wishful thinking and extreme convenience or blindness toward scripture. No brainer. Next question. Does the constitution say "we the people" at the beginning? that is how clear this is.

 
mixendixon
Oct 13, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
All of this argument in twelve points:
1. TRUTH ABOUT REALITY IS KNOWABLE - I didn't want to type in all-caps, but since I can't go bold I decided to use that as heading emphasis. So, here is my point. There is absolute truth. You may deny in your head, but do you live that belief? Do you walk towards a tree and say, "I can't know that tree is there, so I may as well attempt to walk through it?" Of course not. Although that example can be considered a flawed in scale or context, it was the first one that came to mind. Anyway, truth is basically anything that declares what is and denies what is not. If you cannot agree to that, then you are too deceived to continue. So, if truth declares what is and denies what is not, that implies that some things are and some things are not. This is the concept of reality. Some things are and some things aren't. In our daily life, we see that, and no contradiction has ever been found. Thus, truth about reality is knowable.
2. THE OPPOSITE OF TRUE IS FALSE - For literally anything you know, you can break down the information further and further until you reach a limit. This limit is based upon some fundamental ideas called the Foundations of Knowledge. One of these happens to be called the Law of Non-contradictions. This law states that (quoting from http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/phenom/old/lawnon.html), "it is not possible that something be both true and not true at the same time and in the same context." Thus, something cannot be simultaneously real and unreal. A block cannot be somewhere and not be in that same place. I cannot be a man and not a man (Aristotle used that example). Thus, if truth is reality, and reality cannot contradict itself, then false is not reality. Therefore, the opposite of true is false.
3. IT IS TRUE THAT THE THEISTIC GOD EXISTS - Ah, the big point. Wait, I thought I had twelve, but this is only the third point. Well, once you see the rest, this point will be further reinforced. Okay, so, since the opposite of true is false, then the existence of God is either true or false. He is either real of fake. Here are some basic arguments:
*Cosmological Argument - If something is, rather than is not, then it must have a cause. See, nothing can be without a cause. This is a basic law of causality. Thus, everything has a cause. However, since the cause was, rather than was not, it must have had a cause as well. Every cause must therefore have a preceding cause, going back into eternity. However, the second law of thermodynamics prevents an eternal past. Thus, time must have a beginning. Since the laws of nature (physics, biology, chemistry, etc) all MUST occur within time, they cannot have caused time. If they could not have caused time, then they cannot have created the universe. Therefore, the universe itself must have a cause. This cause, because of the lack of time, would have to be outside of time and itself causeless. The only possible candidate for such a being is God.
*Argument of Design - Evolutionists love to say that everything is random, and that design is an illusion. However, as we learn by the time we are five years old, "if it looks like a chicken, walks like a chicken, and clucks like a chicken, it's sure as heck a chicken." The same applies to design. Einstein based General Relativity on the idea that is acceleration and gravity manifest themselves the same, they are the same. If the world appears designed, then it is designed. If you'd rather have some harder evidence than logic, I would have to explain to you that the formation of a simple cell by randomness is no more likely than the formation of a working HDTV by randomness. Just research it on a Creationist site. The fact is that evolution is impossible according to biology, probability, chemistry, and all other "stry"s and "ology"s.
*Ontological Argument - By definition, the greatest thing one can imagine is God. However, also by definition, the greatest thing you can imagine must be real, or else you could imagine something greater that is real, and thus it wouldn't be the greatest. But what is real is always greater than what you imagine. Thus, God must be real and must be greater than we can imagine.
*Moral Argument - No matter what you believe about God, you must agree on one thing. Everyone (excluding some psychopaths) begins to feel a tug of right and wrong when they are very young. There are two possible ideas that most people accept:
1) Evolution View: Evolution programmed basic morals by natural selection. This is absurd. For evolution to produce a human is impossible enough, but for it to eventually dish out all the morals necessary for society to function would be insane. As well, some morals seem to contradict self-preservation, which is an evolutionary priority.
2) Creation View: Since the evolution view is false, that means this view must be true. God, who created us all, made us with a conscience. Most of the laws of morality are universally agreed upon. Those which are disputed are usually affected by culture and choices.
4. IF GOD EXISTS THEN MIRACLES ARE POSSIBLE. A miracle is an unexpected event attributed to divine intervention. If God exists, then He can obviously perform miracles. Why? Here are two simple reasons:
*If God exists, He is omnipotent, and thus capable of overriding the natural order ot things which He created. After all, the Creator is greater than the Creation.
*Ever heard of quantum tunneling? It is a phenomenon based on the fact that subatomic particles can spontaneous change positions because of probability. A proton might be one place in one moment, but light-years away the next, even if it wasn't moving. Because God is the Creator, He can control the random outcomes of probability. Thus, by causing significantly improbable quantum tunneling, He could manipulate literally anything without violating His own laws of nature.
5. MIRACLES CAN BE USED TO CONFIRM A MESSAGE FROM GOD. If miracles are possible, then we must next see if accounts of miracles are actually true. So, let's examine contradictions to miraculous account.
*Some say that the witnesses are incredible. They say the people are ignorant, confused, or don't understand science. True, some witnesses may be ignorant, but how often do ignorant people, such as they claim the twelve disciples were, radically change the world? Maybe they were just so "ignorant" that they weren't closed off to the possibility of miracles.
*Others say that miracles are just a basic part of human imagination, pointing to the similarity in miraculous account in all cultures and peoples. However, this could equally indicate that all miracles come from the same source, namely, God.
*Finally, in the New Testament (which will soon be proved true), each miracle had a specific message and purpose, either fixing the broken or otherwise glorifying God, often defeating .
6. THE NEW TESTAMENT IS HISTORICALLY RELIABLE. There are various evidences for the New Testament as an accurate historical record. For one, there is much manuscript evidence. Some claim that the NT has changed much from the original texts. However, there are hundreds of texts from the same time period that agree on the content of the NT. As well, when looking at the original manuscripts, there is a difference of less than 2% in modern copies. The estimated accuracy of the common translations today is over 95%, and the remaining 5% consists of insignificant phrases and typos. Still others argue that the New Testament accounts were mythologized between their occurance and writing. However, a look in history shows that myths generally took at least a century or many more to develop. The New Testament was completely finished within the closing of the first century A.D., leaving no time for mythological development. In addition to that, the Gospels and Acts show characteristics very different from mythology of that time, such as highly specific names, times, places, numbers, and other information; random tidbits of seemingly insignificant events; important roles for several women; and references that ask one to check with the persons mentioned to validate their stories. Finally, several secular historians from that period either allude to or directly recall events in accordance with the New Testament.
7. THE NEW TESTAMENT SAYS THAT JESUS CLAIMED TO BE GOD. Some people deny this, but if you read the NT, you will find it true. For example:
*John 8:58 - "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM.'" I AM was the name God gave Moses in the encounter at the burning bush. This is a reference with which His entire crowd, since Jews were required to study the Torah, would have been very familiar with. By saying what He said, Jesus was asserting Himself as God.
*Mark 2:5 - "When Jesus say their faith, He said unto the sick of palsy, 'Your sins are forgiven.'" It was common knowledge to the Jews that only God could forgive sins. It was, in fact, a very fundamental teaching. Anyone listening would have immediatly recognized that Jesus was claiming God's authority (in one instance, the Pharisees blasted Him for claiming He was God over this very type of situation).
*John 10:11 - "I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep." The book of Psalms was well-known in the Jewish community. Psalms contained many references to God as a good sheperd.
*John 9:35-38 "35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said unto him, 'Dost thou believe on the Son of God?' 36 He answered and said, 'Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?' 37 And Jesus said unto him, 'Thou hast both seen Him, and it is He that talketh with thee.' 38 And he said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshipped Him." Every Jew knew that the Messiah, the Son of God, would be equal with God, and would be God. They believe in the union of the Father and Son. Thus, in this passage, Jesus very blatantly stated His deity. He also accepted worship, and every Jew was familiar with the commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
From this, then, it is obvious that Jesus claimed to be God.
8. JESUS'S CLAIM TO BE GOD WAS MIRACULOUSLY CONFIRMED. If the New Testament is historically reliable, and if miracles are possible, then it stands to reason that the miracles in the New Testament happened. So, then, what were these miracles and what did they mean?
*Fulfillment of prophecy: Jesus' life was unique in that He perfectly fulfilled every prophecy about the Messiah in the Old Testament. This is truly a miracle. Here are some examples:
*Micah 5:2 - "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." This verse says that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, where Jesus was born over hundreds of years later.
*Isaiah 11:1 - "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." According to Isaiah, the Messiah is to be of the line of Jesse, father of David. According to Matthew 1:1, that was indeed the case.
*Hosae 11:1 - "When Israel was a child, then I loved Him, and called My Son out of Egypt." This verse prophecies the events after Jesus' birth. Herod seeked to kill Jesus, but an angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt with Mary and Jesus. Afterwards, Joseph brought them back from Egypt (Matthew 2:15).
*Psalms 78:2 - "I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old." In Matthew and Luke, you can see Jesus speaking in many parables (Matthew 13:35).
*Zechariah 13:7 - "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." After Jesus' arrest, the disciples scattered (Matthew 26:25).
*Most of Jesus' miracles were miracles of healing. He made the blind to see, the lame to walk, the deaf to hear, and the leper clean. and disease fled His presence; nobody was ever while Jesus was near. Lazarus was risen to life by Jesus' simple word. He restored life and health. He fixed what was broken. He forgave sins. These are all signs with a message. The message is one of life and peace. Jesus came to save the world.
*The greatest miracle of Jesus' ministry was His ressurection. Interestingly enough, there is more evidence for it than any of the other miracles He was said to have done. Besides being documented in the Gospels, it was mentioned in various secular records, and the Gospels actually spoke of over five hundred witnesses, simply so that if people of the day didn't buy the written account, they could go ask those people. It was prophecied in the Old Testament along with the other prophecies Jesus fulfilled, Jesus Himself prophecied it, and the disciples testified to it. Many accuse the disciples of making up their story, but nobody ever allows themselves to die cruel and horrible s for a prank. Yet all of the disciples except John are historically recorded as being executed in some inhumane way. The early Christians suffered the worst persecution the world has ever known. Had the ressurection been fake, they would have given up.
9. THEREFORE JESUS WAS GOD. This part is simple. If Jesus claimed to be God, and He performed many miracles to confirm His claim, fulfilling tons of prophecies, then He must be God.
10. IF JESUS IS GOD, THEN WHATEVER HE SAYS MUST BE TRUE. Why is this? A few reasons.
*It is against the character of God to lie. If God is holy and perfect, then He cannot speak anything false. If He is not holy and perfect, then He is not God. Thus, if Jesus was God, He was holy and perfect, and thus could not lie.
*As well, because God is omnipotent, sovereign, and ruler over all, He could not tell a lie even if His character allowed, because reality would change to His word. The universe was formed by His word, and thus any subsequent words would alter reality to make them true.
11. JESUS TAUGHT THAT THE BIBLE WAS THE WORD OF GOD. Jesus taught many things about the Bible. He taught that it was divinely authoritated (Matthew 4:4, 7, 10, 5:17), imperishable (Matthew 5:18), inerrant (John 17:17), historically reliable (Matthew 12:40-41, 19:4-12), and ultimately supreme (Matthew 15:1-6).
12. THEREFORE, THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND ANYTHING THAT OPPOSES IT IS FALSE. If Jesus is God, and God can't lie, but only speaks the truth, and Jesus said that the Bible is the Word of God, and God can't err (being perfect), then that obviously and logically means that the Bible is the Word of God and it is completely true and inerrant. Since the opposite of true is false, and the Bible is true, then anything that opposes the Bible must be completely false.

 
Caleb Dixon Smith
Feb 27, 2012
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cartesiandiver995 Show

Hi, I used to be Mixen Dixon, but ConvinceMe.net has somehow lost my account, or made it impossible to access. So, I will be continuing now:

1. I know for certain that I exist. This is a fundamental, 100% assurance in my knowledge. From that premise, I operate on high probabilities. When my existence is affected in the way I expected, I know I was correct. While we cannot be technically 100% certain of many things, we can be certain to a practical degree of almost everything. Anything with a low enough probability can be entirely discounted, and we reasonably do so, living our lives based on certainty. The vast majority of uncertainty exists on a quantum scale, and that evens out very quickly into predictability beyond atomic scales.
2. Your conclusion is incorrect. The uncertainty principle masks observation of reality on subatomic scales, but it is highly debatable that reality is actually indefinite there. For if all reality were actually uncertain, then the certainty of that statement would also be truly uncertain, and thus certainty could still exist. A self-contradictory reality is no reality at all. Quantum mechanics does not necessarily limit the reality of truth, but instead limits man's understanding of the incredibly short scales to which uncertainty is observed to apply.
3. The second law of thermodynamics prohibits infinite casual regression. The universe would be perpetually barren because of any infinite past of increasing entropy. Only of the universe were also infinite in size could this be countered, but evidence indicates that the universe is indeed finite. One example: if the universe were infinite, then there would be an infinite amount of electromagnetic waves coming from every direction, thus everything would be infinitely hot.
Proportionally, an HDTV is significantly less complex than a cell. Cells pack much more complex function into one unit of space than any form of TV does. Therefore, by scaling the natural processes up in size, the HDTV is no more unlikely to come about by chance than a cell is.
That's nowhere near enough time for one cell to form, regardless of farther evolution. Even one simple protein can require over a hundred amino acids all lined up in linked in the exact right way. A single cells requires large numbers of several proteins to function, and simple statistics tell us that each protein lowers the odds of success exponentially. Exponents are incredibly powerful on mathematics. These would have to come together, along with many other chemicals, all at roughly the same time to begin working. There is no room for a gradual creation of a cell, for the very chaotic forces needed to create a cell would destroy any unfinished work left for more than a very brief time. Therefore, the process would need to start all over. Then consider that not every chemical needed for a cell will be present everywhere in the ocean, even earlier chemical soup oceans, thus limiting the number of places where this could even happen. Also note that, while there are four stages of complexity for organic molecules, no natural process has ever been found to create anything greater than the second stage. Further activity tends to break them back down to stage one.
Morality has no authority if it is a product of evolution. It would simply be a part of the evolutionary toolbox. In that case, someone who can survive better through immorality would not be wrong for doing so.
4. I know that quantum tunneling is possible, and my point is that it is a fundamental law of the universe which God could easily manipulate to perform miracles.
5. I am not entirely sure what you mean by that. If God exists (which is the premise of this point), then miracles are means by which He could prove someone is speaking for Him. Surely this is indisputable, even if the existence of God is.
6. The point is that there is no reason to doubt the Gospel claims of miracles. After all, they show no other signs of falsehood. The only reason to reject the claims would be the assumption that miracles don't happen, but responsible historians lay their presuppositions aside and listen to the evidence. It would be quite a significant coincidence if every time Jesus claimed to heal someone they just happened to heal naturally. Especially considering the people He raised from the dead.
7. * You are ignoring historical and immediate context. The Jews attempted to stone Him for blasphemy immediately afterword.
* No one said his palsy was the result of sin. Jesus forgave his sins independently of healing him. He only healed him to prove that He was not lying about forgiving him, for all Jews knew that only God can forgive sins. This was a claim to deity.
* If these other events were falsehoods, it would not make sense for them to be accompanied by miracles. Remember, anyway, that in this point I am only demonstrating that Jesus claimed to be God, not yet that He was telling the truth.
8. That argument is pointless. The Jews didn't believe because they didn't want Him. Regardless, their unbelief does not magically explain away the prophecies which are historically known to have been written hundreds of years before. Even if you removed all the miracles from the Gospel accounts of Jesus' life, that would not explain being born in Bethlehem, being descended from David, the return from Egypt, the prominent use of parables, the rejection by His own people (wow, it was prophesied that the Jews wouldn't believe), the crucifixion, the casting of lots for Jesus' clothes, and burial in a tomb. Most of these things were unlikely on their own, but together they are ridiculously improbable to be fulfilled by chance.
The last four points stand if these seven do, therefore there is no reason to doubt the deity of Christ and validity of Christianity.

 


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