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No to offend anyone, but according to the bible, aren't soldiers technically commiting sin whenever they kill an enemy, like murder?
Religion

kleban10
Sep 03, 2009
16 votes
20 debaters
3
2
1
1
1


+ Add Argument

8
Yes


jonjax71
Sep 03, 2009
2 convinced
Rebuttal
One of the many paradoxes and contradictions of the bible. Anyone who is offended by this type of inquiry is very insecure. The truth should always be questioned, it's falsehoods that won't withstand scrutiny

 
hottubwille
Sep 13, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thevenerablerob Show

I call it a joke because you, and others, claim to know what the writers of this very old document were thinking when you don't really have the first idea. For instance, turn the other cheek…what do you think this means? I call it a joke because you think it is the word of god that needs to be followed when in reality it was written by men. I call it a joke because it is so loosely interpretive that anyone could claim it says just about anything and they’d be close to being right. I call it a joke because too many have died over its words for anyone else to ever feel the need to follow it again.

 
akulakhan
Sep 03, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
That is something I always wanted to bring up with extremist Christians when I debate with them, however I have been afraid that I would evoke their arrogance.

 
akulakhan
Sep 03, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: rebirth Show

I do not believe that is what this debate is about.

 
mmmmaster
Sep 04, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
it is murder and it is a sin. i believe that the sixth commandment was meant to be dont kill some one who doesnt deserve it but if you must kill kill only for life family country

 
jonjax71
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thevenerablerob Show

here's what i said One of the many paradoxes and contradictions of the bible. Anyone who is offended by this type of inquiry is very insecure. The truth should always be questioned, it's falsehoods that won't withstand scrutiny

Rob:Point out that which I've said is preposterous. is it questioning the truth? That anyone offended by inquiries is insecure or that the premise of this debate is a paradox. Point out my presposterous statement and then if you want we can debate it, battle it our for supremacy



 
hottubwille
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

An extreme Christian is one who believes in what is in the bible is real.

 
hottubwille
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thevenerablerob Show

Turn the other check does not mean what you think it means. Just like mostly everything else in the bible. That is why the bible is a useless and dead document. It was written by men so long ago the original meanings are lost. This debate is a perfect example. Kill, but don't murder, but it's okay if your taking back the holy land and it's not premeditated and the other guy is at war but...What a joke.

 
hottubwille
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: guidry407 Show

Your absolutely right and your point is well taken. I think my reaction to people quoting this document comes from the absolute lack of any real thinking about the words. Too many people abandon their common sense and believe it actually is the word of some god and not just the words of men. They don't understand the origins and the meanings and therefore willingly allow themselves to be governed by books like the bible or the koran. But, you are right. There is some value in these works if taken in the right context.

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: bookworm Show

Everyone has their own translation, don't they! :) Love the way people try and 'fix' the Bible to make it "right." ....lol

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: mobmentality Show

A 'fair' war makes it 'okay' to kill. That's like saying to two feuding children...it's okay that you poked each other's eyes out...because you both wouldn't share your toys! ...Ridiculous!!!

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

Watchman posted: "Actually, the sixth commandment commands Christian not to murder."

OMG...Really...is that what it says!? ...Pleease! Enough is enough already! "I didn't murder him/her...I killed her!" What's the difference...they're dead!?

If you are called to war, and you believe that strongly in the commandment...defect! No one's stopping you! I know I would...and it's not because I am religious, but because I believe in the sanctity of life! I have no right...no way, no how...to take the life of another human being. It's just not in me...and it's just that simple! I will defend myself...but I will not kill.

However you slice it...condoning killing is wrong! This is why I do not believe in the death penalty.

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

Well...if you live by the truth...and you follow the commandment...you will not provide excuses to break it! :)

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thevenerablerob Show

AIDS did not originate with homosexuals. Heterosexuals have anal sex...and do spread AIDS. There are many ways, in fact, that AIDS is spread...and whether or not these ways are "immoral," is irrelevant.

I agree with Hottub, wholeheartedly...there is plenty in the Bible that is contradictory, potentially harmful, and obsolete...and you don't have to earn a doctorate in Bible Study to determine that!

 
charmingyrl
Sep 18, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Killing is killing. I dont know what version or what bible anyone else is reading, but I do know that in my bible, the Christian Holy Bible, it says "Thou shall not kill.". Now, last time I was in Deuteronomy, where I believe the 10 commandments are located, I did not see, "Thou shall not kill (See clause 3a. for examples of when said commandment can be broken)." Disagree as you wish, but in the bible CLEAR AS CRYSTAL it says Thou shall not kill.

 
starchase
Mar 08, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
okay now i believe in god but not the bible but what i know about the bible is that yes murder is bad but really we are defending ourselves and others by being in the military. so its sorta like self defense which is good in your part (U.S citizens) but bad part in others (terriosts).

i do believe that there is always a loop-hole in something just like this. the soliders isnt vrreating murder, they are preventing it from happening. as a matter of fact if murder was being created then our political views are kinda stupid cause that looks bad on the goverments fault. but really, we are not really creating murder but this is only my opinon : )

 
voltaire
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: bookworm Show

The commandment says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill...unless thou art attacked".

 
voltaire
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

An extremist Christian is one that refuses to listen to any reason whatsoever. It's like laying a penny down in front of someone and them telling you that there is no penny. The penny is right there, of course there is a penny. The same thing goes for Christians, you can give them solid proof that they are wrong, but they won't listen to logic.

 
voltaire
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: guidry407 Show

What you are overlooking here is that people don't live their lives by poems. If you are going to put every ounce of faith you have into one document, that document should clearly state what it means. The bible is a man-made book of riddles and fairy tales. If there is a God, he is a lying, hypocritical God.

 
matt1989
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
so just putting this out there. The Bible says its ok to kill right?

 
+ Add Argument

8
No


watchman81
Sep 04, 2009
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Actually, the sixth commandment commands Christian not to murder. There is a difference between murder and killing on the battlefield. If one kills in self defense, or in the defense of another, then it is not murder. Murder is killing someone in cold blood. If one kills to defend their country, in a wartime setting, it cannot be considered murder.

 
bookworm
Sep 04, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
The word in the sixth commandment usually translated as 'kill' should be translated as 'murder' and is in some translations. That means that the death penalty (when deserved) is not transgressing this. As for war, it could be argued that it is murder to kill an enemy in war, but the Lord clearly directs the Israelites to go to war in some instances, so we can see that that was not His intent in commanding His people not to murder. Of course, even in war, there are times when it would be wrong to kill an enemy, ie when he has already surrendered.

 
helpme
Sep 04, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: akulakhan Show

What is an extreme Christian? One who you think is a screwball or one that identifies truth and tries to live by it? Maybe you have a different definition than I have provided.

 
mobmentality
Sep 04, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
In Hebrew, the word "kill" means "the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder". Also, I am pretty sure that there is a passage somewhere in the Bible that says that if you are fighting a 'fair' war it is okay to kill. (I'm not so sure about the latter though).

 
thevenerablerob
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
There is not a whole lot left for me to say except that jonjax's opinion is preposterous but expected....

Murder is different from fighting. War is different than murder. Obviously steps should be taken to protect oneself from those who threaten our safety. One can't just stand by and let invaders hold up disrupt society, kidnap the children, rape the women etctera. God accepts this and states that self protection is often necessary. Though He does not encourage war, if it is a step that must be taken, so be it.

As Bookworm said, the Israelites were instructed to battle for protection and to claim back what was rightfully theirs.

We are supposed to turn the other cheek, but not when it concerns the ultimate welfare of oneself, friends, family and country.



 
guidry407
Sep 10, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: hottubwille Show

"Turn the other check does not mean what you think it means. Just like mostly everything else in the bible. That is why the bible is a useless and dead document."

That makes no sense, just because something dose not mean exactly what it says, or has a hidden meaning dose not make it useless. The stories have meaning, they have messages that must be translated into modern situations. Especially when dealing with the old Testimate, times have changed but that dose not mean that it is usless it just means that you might have to look harder to understand its true meaning. I understand that that may be way to much thinking for some people but please, lets not get ahead of our selves and say that just because something has a hidden meaning that it is useless or just because a story dosn't just come right out and give you the moral. If your argument was even remotely correct, which it is not, then novels with meanings, poetry, and abstract art are all useless,

 
thevenerablerob
Sep 11, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

'contradictions of the Bible...' and then the inference that the Bible is a falsehood that won't withstand scrutiny.

Both are fallacious assumptions of somebody who does not understand (or read) the Bible but only tries to find whatever 'contradictions that can be' for argument's sake. Maybe 'presumptuous' would be a better description.

I believe that I have successfully managed to rebut many of the contradictions you chaps have found so far with reasonable explanations (not having time for all the so called contradictions). And that's just me with minimal research and no doctorate on Bible.

You are correct about the offended and insecure and regarding the paradox, but those weren't what I was referring to.

 
thevenerablerob
Sep 11, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: hottubwille Show

jonjax, my apologies, yours wasn't anywhere near to the extent of preposterous as what most of willie's is. :P

 
thevenerablerob
Sep 11, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: hottubwille Show

I suppose you're calling our law system a joke? It's a life sentence for murder, but in self defence one may not even end up being charged. Same thing. See, you call the Bible a joke because you don't understand it or attempt to comprehend it.

Your post obviously portrays little knowledge in how the Bible was written or the meaning of 'inspired' in its true sense.

The Bible is the farthest thing from a dead document alive. Did you know that its the Number 1 bestseller in the world?

The Bible actually contains data and laws on some of the greatest controversies of today. To use an example, it even says that gay marriage is morally wrong. It also declares that those who do marry will have some of the gravest circumstances cast upon them. And isn't gay marriage one of the largest causes of the spread of AIDS?

It states prostitution, pornography and on and on are immoral and wrong. It addresses our issues today morally, yet few people heed it.

 
teachme
Sep 12, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: mmmmaster Show

...Someone who doesn't deserve it?! Who's the judge? This is really a joke! Why can't it mean just exactly what it says..."THOU SHALT NOT KILL"?!

 
johnlock
Sep 13, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
the bible actually specifically states that wars fought to defend ones homeland are honorable, and allowed.

 
melonchollylife
Sep 25, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: akulakhan Show

Tell me about it, that's how I feel too.
That's the problem when extremists debate anything - they often ignore the other side, or interrupt, and cause the whole discussion to go sown the drain.
When someone walks into a debate, they should back up their side, but no be so blind as to take much offense.
But hey, what are you gonna do, you know?

 
yisrael
Feb 07, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Without Offending,For those who are intelligent enough and can reason: In the law of Moses it says you shall not kill "meaning to not assassinate" a study of the Bible is necessary for you to make a statement that is true, unlike yours which lacks Biblical proof and knowledge. To kill is different than to assassinate or murder. A soldier kills to defend a country. If the soldier surpasses his duty and begins to kill civilians (not by accident) who are innocent the soldier is no longer killing but assassinating making him guilty of a sin. Read Romans chapter 13:1-10 God has put the authorities and the laws. If a soldier kills an innocent by accident the law that God has given the authority to declare him innocent and free of guilt, or guilty. Gods law thoroughly has the guidelines. If a soldier was in a case where a man killed by accident the law of God in the times of Ancient Israel had "safe cities" where a man who had killed by accident could flee and be free of charge. Deut. 4:41-42, I Timothy 1:9 Your statement is an example of why there are so many different religious christian views, when the Christian view should be one and in a union.

 
taylorr
Mar 08, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
This debate is one of the many problems that plague my philosophical mind. I've thought this through quite a bit seeing as I am a member of the US Army and could find myself put in the kill or be killed situation. I will address this from two perspectives, first of the catholic church, and second from a ethical perspective (I love my philosophy.)

1. The catholic church forbids the intentional destruction of human life. In war, the purpose or goal is not the destruction of life but rather the preservation of life and peace. The ideal war, in fact, ends in absolutely no bloodshed. "Killing" another human for the preservation or establishment of peace is not a sin. Therefore, killing in the name of a JUST war (this excludes all wars that do not state their goal as the preservation of peace) is not a sin. A quick criticism to the argument would be that most wars are not to preserve peace. My answer is this...peace does not mean the absence of war. Peace is also the balance of powers in the world so that the scale should not tip in ones favor and promote the abuse of power.

2. When thinking ethically. The deontologist would say that preservation of life is a moral law that must always be upheld, therefore killing in self defense is not only morally allowed but morally obligatory. Also from a utilitarian perspective, in a just war, if killing your enemy leads to peace and happiness of many then his sacrifice was not only worthy, but necessary.

 
kaleb
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: voltaire Show

you are right. in fact, it doesn't say thou shalt not kill at all. it says "tsakh teer lo" which, i promise, translates to "do not murder". if you are going to pretend to logically destroy an entire religion by pointing out how it contradicts itself, you might have the decency to discuss things it actually says, and not just things that are easy to attack.

Christ associates murder not with an action, but with an attitude of hatred and says that it is this attitude of hatred that is sinful. it is also worthwhile to note that, like many other religious persona, when faced with his own death Christ did not defend himself and even rebuked one of his followers for offering a violent defence. if Christ is truly believed to be the example to follow, then perhaps it is not that "christian teachings" are hypocritical, it is just that there aren't all that many people in the world who actually follow what Christ said.

 
kaleb
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: voltaire Show

in this opinion you defend and identify with the very quality that you claim to despise. there is nothing that you can say that will convince me that there is a penny, and there is nothing that i can say that will convince you that there is not a penny. thus we are both unable to be convinced not by our stubbornness, but by adhering to principles developed from our experiences. what proof would you like to offer me that my experience is wrong? what great logical proof would you use to dismiss my opinion? are you so fundamentally entrenched in your understanding that you honestly believe that you can tell me that i have not experienced God? are you so dogmatic that you believe that i should simply surrender my entire paradigm your say-so? what makes you different than those extremist christian? what makes any of us different?

 
kaleb
Mar 09, 2010
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: matt1989 Show

it says there is a time for it...
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.


 


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