Login/Sign Up




Palestinians prefer Moderate faction to Extremist Islamic Faction: Sign of hope for peace? Or irrelevant?
Politics


Palestians prefer Fatah to Hamas
...
watchman81
Jun 29, 2009
3 votes
2 debaters
2
2


+ Add Argument

2
Sign of hope


+ Add Argument

1
Irrelevant


watchman81
Jun 29, 2009
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Unfortunately, I'd have to say this is irrelevant. Palestinians' attitudes regarding islamic terrorism will be irrelevant until they decide to do something about it. Hamas still has control of the Gaza Strip and will defend that control will bloodshed if necessary. If there is to be a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah cannot remain a factor. They must be either destroyed, or marginalized so that the Palestinians who are truly wanting peace can work to achieve this goal.

 
thoughtprocess
Jun 29, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

WatchMizzle muh bizzle with the stuhzizzle. Yo damn Momma is so fugly ... of forget it lol ... I can't come up with anything good.

Otay ... I agree insofar as Hamas is a backwards thinking fundamentalist religious group that endangers innocent Israelis and hinders support for the Palestinian cause. It is very easy for us to say this from our perspective. Unfortunately for the Palestinians they know that these organizations are there only military defense against Israel.

We don't know what it's like to live under the horrors of the occupation. Israel's method of violent and barbarous oppression plays a huge part in the formation of these organizations. Hamas was actually supported by Israel so they could war with the PLO.

Israel has all the power here. There have been long periods throughout the years when the violence by Palestinians has been stopped, even while they suffered under the occupying forces and the settlements continued to grow. The groups such as Fatah, and the PLO in the past, have recognized Israel's right to exist. Did Israel end their occupation and recognize the right of Palestinians to have their own state? No. Of course not.

You have the majority of Israelis supporting a two state solution and the same with a majority of Palestinians. Yet you have Israel continuing to build settlements and steal land. After 44 years they are still unwilling to withdraw and grant the Palestinians a state. Even after so many people have died they are unwilling to take a different route to achieve peace.

You are correct when you say it is irrelevant whether the Palestinians choose moderate leadership. It is because Israel will still refuse to end the occupation, the expansion of settlements, and the violent repression of the Palestinian people.

 
thoughtprocess
Jun 29, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

There are many documented periods where Palestinian suicide bombings and other attacks such as the firing of rockets were halted by Hamas just as recently as within the last few years. Same goes for the PLO back in the day. It is IMPOSSIBLE for these attacks to stop completely because it is the inexorable outcome of a violent occupation. People living under the conditions that the Palestinians live under are never going to be able to afford the luxury of remaining peaceful while they have guns pointed at them and bulldozers mowing down their houses.

It is the height of bias to claim that it is Islamic extremists that have always been the ones to incite violence. One obvious example is the forced removal of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their lands during the 1948 War. This has been affirmed and attested to by Israeli historians. While Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries there was no excuse for the forced removal of innocent civilians from their lands. You also forget the numerous Israeli terrorist groups that killed many civilians prior to the establishment of Israel whose members subsequently held some of the highest positions in Israeli government including Prime Minister.

It is almost difficult to respond to your claim about the refusal by Arafat of the Israeli offer during the peace talks during the end of the Clinton era. You really can't know much about that subject and make that claim. The Israeli offer was in no way a legitimate compromise. It would have left the West Bank cut into pieces with various illegal settlements and ISRAELI ONLY roads intersecting throughout 'sovereign' Palestinian territory. And the land swap that was offered would have left Israel with critical water sources while giving Palestinians a small piece of dirt in the south. And most importantly ISRAEL, namely Ariel Sharon, refused to carry on with the talks when he came into power. Arafat was still willing to negotiate.

As for the withdrawal from Gaza. They removed the settlements and the troops but still kept the place a virtual prison. Gazans could not get adequate food, medicine, or fuel into Gaza because Israel controlled their air space, sea access and land borders. There is no way the Palestinians could have accepted that.

Now you also continue to claim, in spite of all factual evidence, that Israel is not stealing land. It is illegal under international law and has been verified by the International Court as such, for an occupying country to allow migration of their citizens to the occupied territory. This is stealing land buddy. There is no denying this.

You seem to expect a miracle from the Palestinians that they are unwilling and unable to grant. Namely that portions of their populations will not react violently when they are subject to violence from Israel. You want the whole process to work backwards. Israel must end the occupation not only moral grounds but for practical reasons as well.



 
watchman81
Jun 29, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

"I can't come up with anything good."

And neither can yo' momma!

"Israel's method of violent and barbarous oppression plays a huge part in the formation of these organizations."

If you look at history, you will see that it is the EXISTENCE of Israel that plays a huge part in the formation of these organizations. The Jews were harassed and persecuted ever since they came back to this land. It was always the Islamic extremists who were the aggressors in the conflict, and the moment this aggression ceases, there will be peace.

"There have been long periods throughout the years when the violence by Palestinians has been stopped, even while they suffered under the occupying forces and the settlements continued to grow."

Really? And when were these LONG periods?

"The groups such as Fatah, and the PLO in the past, have recognized Israel's right to exist. Did Israel end their occupation and recognize the right of Palestinians to have their own state?"

Israel has always wanted to live peacefully with the Palestinians. Fatah and the PLO when they were first created, were created to destroy Israel. Eventually, when they realized this was impossible, they decided to recognize Israel's right to exist. Unfortunately, they didn't actually get serious about peace with Israel until fairly recently, and we still can't be sure that they are serious now.

This point also ignores the fact that there are still Palestinian terrorist groups that still exist and target Israeli civilians. There will be no peace until these groups are eliminated or made irrelevant.

"Yet you have Israel continuing to build settlements and steal land. After 44 years they are still unwilling to withdraw and grant the Palestinians a state."

Israel has not stolen any land. As a matter of fact, they offered to dismantle 90% of the settlements in exchange for peace. Unfortunately, Yasser Arafat didn't really want peace, so he rejected the offer. And you are also forgetting that Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and was rewarded with continued rocket attacks from Hamas. It is clear that the Palestinians must stop the terrorism in order to gain peace. If there were no terrorism, there would be no violence and there would be a two state solution.

 
thoughtprocess
Jun 30, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/30/headlines#8

Further evidence of Israel committing a heinous act but because it's not Palestinian terrorism certain people don't think it plays a role in the conflict. Israel steals land!

 


Use these tags to find similiar debates

britain death government politics uk 2008 2009 9/11 abortion Afghanistan america Arizona AU bad Baha BBC bias Biden boycott Britain bush canada capitalism Censorship cheney children China Christianity church cia Clinton Cold War commonwealth communism Communist congress conservative conservatives conspiracy Constitution Corruption country crime death debate defeat Democracy democrat Democrats detention discrimination drugs economics economy education election elections Ethics EU Europe Euthanasia evil Fascism feminism Fight France Frankie freedom Freedom of speech freedoms french gay Gaza george bush Georgia global global warming goverment government Great Britain Guantanamo Bay guns Health Health Care Healthcare Hillary hillary clinton History Hitler homosexual human rights illegal illegal immigration immigration india iran Iranian presidential election iraq islam Israel japan Jewish juggernaut justice Karl law laws legal legislation liberal lies marijuana marriage mccain media Medicine mexico middle east military monarchy money moral morals Mugabe Muslim Muslims news North Korea nuclear nukes Obama objective Oil opression Osama pakistan Palestine Palin Panda paradox parliament peace petition philosophy policy politicians Politics polygamy power president Prime Minister prisoners protest Public Affairs punishment queen race racism religion republican Republicans revolution right rights Rove russia Saddam Sarkozy Security sex socialism Society South Korea sovereignty Supreme court tax taxes terror terrorism terrorist terrorists Tibet torture Troop U.S. uk un united nations united states us usa vancam vote Votes voting war washington weapons wmd women world wrong