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Are their any atainable goals for the US in Afghanistan?
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frankiej4189
May 21, 2009
6 votes
7 debaters
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4
Yes


lordhaines
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
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Allowing Afghanistan to be able to dictate it's own future through it's own government without fear of religious fanatics is the best possible outcome for the United Nations troops in Afghanistan.

The Taliban, although were dominant in controlling Afghanistan, are not the only terrorist threat from the Muslim world. Al Qaeda are spread through the eastern and western world, but with limited results.

For every ten people terrorists kill UN troops kill hundreds, if not thousands of Islamic extremists threatening the world. The fact the UN stands up and says they will not put up with it means the situation in Afghanistan is not between Islam and the US, but between the world and religious extremism.

If a government refuses to be involved in international co-operation, then they will of course be isolated. As is happening with Iran and North Korea. Not because of their religion but because of their international actions.

For example- Iran has more than a right to nuclear power stations, but when the leader of the country says they will build nukes and wipe Israel off the map you then can't expect the world to play ball. Saudi Arabia, even Egypt now, and the best example- Turkey are all Islamic, and reap the benefits of peaceful interaction with the world.

So once the United Nations teaches the governments of countries such as Afghanistan that as long as they don't stick a middle finger up to the world then nobody cares if they are a Islamic state with Islamic laws and Islamic style diplomacy.

 
lordhaines
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

You forget it is the United Nations in Afghanistan now, not just the US.

When Al Qaeda attacked America and Afghanistan refused to hand over criminals at the head of the worlds thoroughly linked terrorist networks, then there was no option but to go in and attack the head of the snake. Pakistan are doing their part in North Pakistan at flushing out Al Qaeda, America is not storming them because they co-operate.

There are many Islamic countries around the world that flourish under world co-operation. But you can not go around threatening to wipe the western world off the map and not have them eventually respond.
The US spent years fighting Al Qaeda before 9/11 even happened. But as soon as it happened they had no alternative but to strike.

For every soldier killed in Afghanistan a hundred militant religious fanatics are killed. It is a war that they can not win.

I have friends in Afghanistan at the moment, building schools and hospitals, and improving roads and water and electricity supplies, in co-operation with the Afghan government, who want these troops there to keep their freedom. It is the Taliban that then come and destroy those things and the blame seems to be on the US for even building them.

Afghanistan has changed. The elected government is fighting a war against the Taliban, and the US are now helping them at their request. That is the situation.

The UN in Afghanistan spend billions giving the Afghans basic commodities, and a chance at holding their own freedom. It has nothing to do with religion. The Afghan government authorises the bombing of civilian areas where there is intelligence that militants are. not to kill innocent people.

Islam can and will flourish in the world if it stops trying to outfight the world superpowers. They can not win a war with the US. If Al-Qaeda hadn't off been trying to attack the western world in decades of attempted bombings then they would have been left alone.

You stick your head into a lions mouth and it will be bitten off. Simple.

 
thevenerablerob
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Destroying the Taliban and its terror is a great enough goal for me.

 
jonjax71
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
After booting out the Taliban, I'd love to see the return of good ol' Afghani hashish that was so prevalent in the 70s and ooooooh sooooooo goooooooooood

 
watchman81
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

TP,


You have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that it is the actions of the US that has bred Islamic terrorism. You already know I disagree with this assessment. There is one question that I always ask you that you haven't yet been able to answer. Maybe you will this time. Here goes:

If it is the flawed foreign policy of the United States that breeds islamic terrorism, this would mean that we have basically created our own enemy. So if this is true, then what explains the violence of Islamic extremism that occurred before the US ever existed? Islam has a very violent and brutal history of conquest and conversion by the sword/gun. Bin Laden and his ilk weren't created in the 80's after we left the Afghanis to fight the Russians on their own. Modern Islamic terrorism actually began in the 20's. But even before that, Islam has been a religion of terrorism. The terrorism that we see today is just a descendant of the terrorism that began with Muhammed and his followers.

I have always believed that it is absurd to blame the US for the spread of Islamic terror. The history of Islam says otherwise. Also, Islamic terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with the US or the war on terrorism also says otherwise. If one really looks at this conflict, it is easy to see that it is the violent extremist islamic ideology that fuels this fight. While the US is guilty of its own crimes, it is not responsible for the rise of this threat. On top of that, I think you tend to grossly exaggerate the crimes of the US.

Where is the US dropping bombs in North Africa or Asia? What wrongly fought wars and clandestine operations have killed the millions of people you claim it has? List 'em off to me.

 
thoughtcriminal
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
A goal we can achieve but have thus far failed to is to leave Afghanistan better off than it was before. Opium has turned it into a narco state, and this drug money is funding terrorism. We know this, and we allowed it consciously.

 
watchman81
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

Damn you! Now I'm craving Buffalo Wings!! I hate you!

*sigh*

Not only are you the kind of guy I could have a beer with (Guiness please), but we could have Buffalo Wings with it!* And with Bleu Cheese at that! None of that wussy Ranch Dressing.


*In a totally hetersexual way of course.


 
lordhaines
May 22, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

The war in Iraq was illegal, unjustified and immoral. George W. Bush and Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Simple.

Britain was too eager to bend over and let America do what it does best- screw people over. At least the French stood up and said no.

If they had stayed out of Iraq the situation in Afghanistan would be slightly easier and more attainable.

 
watchman81
May 22, 2009
0 convinced
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Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

I have now officially lost all respect for you. Come on Frankie, you must learn to embrace the wonder that is Blue Cheese dressing!

 
watchman81
May 22, 2009
0 convinced
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Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

Frankie,


I agree with you up to a point, but, I think what you're missing is that no one expects our war in Afghanistan to completely stop terrorism. We invaded Afghanistan because it housed the headquarters of the people who attacked us on 9/11. On top of that, it was controlled by a group of extremist Islamists who have the exact same mentality and goals as that of Bin Laden and other Islamic Extremists. I think victory in Afghanistan means removing the threat of Islamic terrorism to the citizens of this country while allowing it to have a viable and lasting democracy.

 
watchman81
May 22, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show


Nice to know we agree on one of the biggest uniters of all: Beer! Although Newcastle would be good too.

I agree that the US has a part in this, but I don't think it's as big of a part as you seem to think. Before 9/11, I don't really see what we were doing in the Middle East that would be so horrible that they would fly planes into the twin towers. Most of these groups couldn't care less about what we did in Iraq, overthrowing the Shah of Iran, or dare I say it, the Palestinians! I think sometimes these people will cite these reasons to justify their actions to the West, but the real reasons are their religious beliefs.

Violent Islamic Extremism is clearly the #1 reason for these terrorist attacks. This is something they say themselves (although the news won't report it). If what you are saying is true, then they would only attack the US, Israel, England, and maybe some other countries that support these nations. However, this is not the case. Thousands upon thousands of innocents in Darfur have been massacred because of Islam extremists. Innocent Buddhists have been massacred in Asian countries by Islamic Extremists. In the Phillipines, Islamic extremism is killing people. In Somalia, people are being killed almost every day by Islamic extremists. Two days ago, a six year old child was murdered by these people. What did he have to do with any attacks on any Muslim lands? Nothing. If these people were attacking for the reasons you cite, none of this would be happening. The fact is, Islamic Terrorists hate everyone who is not like them and they will not hesitate to kill them. Their goal is an Islamic domination over the world. Obviously, this will not happen, but if the nations of the world don't wake up and recognize the danger we are facing, many more lives could be lost.

As for the oil issue, we have both agreed in the past that what our stupid dependance on countries like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others has caused us to do has been horrible. We never should have allowed ourselves to become intertwined and dependant on these nations.

 
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2
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thoughtprocess
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
For every Taliban member killed there are hundreds more across the Muslim world willing to pick up where they left off. Keep bombing wedding parties, starting illegal wars and massacring civilians. See how far that gets anyone. The "Graveyard of Conquerors" will just claim more American lives and the perpetually war torn people of Afghanistan will continue to suffer; not only under oppressive fundamentalist regimes but also under the bombs and bullets rained down upon them by the U.S. government.

The U.S. governments decisions play right into the hands of people like Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. We are the best form of public relations for them. We have galvanized, more than ever before, widespread hatred and fear of the U.S. and support for the likes of Al Qaeda.

When Al Qaeda attacked it should have been a police action. You don't bomb an entire country for 8 years straight because their government refused to hand over the perpetrators of a crime. There are intelligent and pragmatic ways to handle things and then there are the U.S. government's ways of handling things.

 
thoughtprocess
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

Hey LordHaines nice to have you on the site. I've enjoyed some of your posts so far.

"then there was no option but to go in and attack the head of snake."

There were plenty of other options. It should have been a police or clandestine forces action; with perhaps some form of much smaller military action if a situation called for it . The U.S. could have had various agencies work in conjunction with other international agencies to apprehend the perpetrators of the crime. The scalpel as opposed to the axe. The War in Afghanistan has yielded little if any real progress and the ends do not justify the means. There is no disputing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have made the U.S. look worse than ever in the eyes of the Muslim world, and that goes for moderate as well as fundamentalist Muslims, as well as to much of the rest of the world. We have increased our number of enemies and detractors exponentially.

There were also a myriad of opportunities prior to 9/11 to put a stop to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Most of these fall under the Clinton administration but G.W. Bush also bears a substantial amount of blame for his ineptitude in securing us with all the warnings he received.

As for threats coming from the Muslim world. The U.S. threatens countries all the time. Not only does it threaten them but it actually takes violent action frequently. The U.S. government has been dropping bombs all over Northern Africa, the Middle East and Asia under the guise of "The War on Terror". It did the same in Central and South America during much of the latter half of the 20th century under the similar guise of fighting Communist aggression.

When Al-Qaeda murders innocents they are labeled terrorists. When America, throughout the course of its many wars and clandestine operations, is responsible for the murder of millions it is labeled as "The Good Old USA".

The best way for the U.S. to combat terror is to stop engaging in and supporting acts of terror itself. I would guarantee that a genuine healthy shift in foreign policy would offer far greater protection from terrorism than the War in Afghanistan. There are other ways of securing one's self without focusing totally on wars and violent aggression.

 
frankiej4189
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

I prefer my ranch without chunks of mold thank you very much.

 
thoughtprocess
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

Before I answer all of those questions I must go watch Jeopardy and eat some delicious hot wings with blue cheese. But rest assured nemesis, your questions will not go unanswered.

 
thoughtprocess
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

I can't believe you said Guinness. That is my all time beer choice.

Ok. So, I will answer your question as to U.S. government actions helping to incite terrorism. Firstly, I think you misunderstand my thoughts on this matter. I am saying we are a PART of this problem, a large part. I also do not blame the U.S. for ALL terrorism throughout history. I am speaking mainly in reference to Al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden and other contemporary groups associated with them. I also agree that religious fanaticism is a huge factor and plays a powerful role in their tactics and actions. This does not change the fact that there are very plain and obvious reasons why they are directing their attacks towards us. It does not excuse their actions by any means but much of the Muslim world has very valid reasons to be livid with our government. I would compare it to the kind of violence France encountered during its struggle to maintain control over Algeria.

The main motivating factor for our barbarous actions in the Middle East has been oil, obviously. We have become addicted to interfering in the internal affairs of their governments in our efforts to maintain some semblance of control over their oil in order to benefit special interests and geopolitical strategies. The crimes we have committed far outweigh those of Al-Qaeda. Starting with the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran(1953) where we reinstated the dictatorship that they had suffered under for decades. They then suffered for another 26 years under this dictatorship because of what we had done. All the way up to our support for Saddam Hussein while he was slaughtering his people and those of Iran with chemical weapons. Plus our support for numerous brutal regimes like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and others.

Mind you, all these crimes took place without so much as a spitball being fired on our soil. Our criminal actions run so deep it is impossible to cover it all here. Even the Iran hostage crisis of 79' is a direct result of our actions in 1953 and our support for the Shah.

Contrary to what you may believe, I try my best to come to my conclusions by OBJECTIVELY reviewing as many facts as I can get my hands on. I then try to understand how we, as Americans, would feel if we experienced the kinds of attacks they have received from us. What would we be like, and what kinds of actions would we take, if we had our leaders overthrown and replaced with dictators? What if we were tortured and murdered by these same dictators installed by another country? Had chemical weapons used on us while this country gave millions to the puppet dictators that were perpetrating these crimes. Watched our criminal leaders get rich from oil while we suffered under their barbaric regimes. Then, when they stopped supporting our dictator they reigned bombs down on us and helped to enact sanctions against us, resulting in the deaths of well over a million people; including hundreds of thousands of children. Foreign military bases on our sacred lands. The list could go on and on. Just imagine how many secret/classified CIA operations have taken place that we may never know about.

Osama Bin Laden has used this history to his favor. He also genuinely believes this gives him the right to attack our country by whatever means necessary. People from all over the Muslim world, who, because of the nature of Islam, see themselves as one entity, have been motivated by this long bloody history to join the ranks of the likes of Al-Qaeda and other groups. A guy like Bin Laden benefits from our crimes and uses it to his advantage. I hope this somewhat clarifies my position to you and answers your question.

I would also like to say that I have never exaggerated the crimes of the U.S. I am sure I may make mistakes but the vast majority of my claims can easily be verified with some research. Also, we have been dropping bombs all over parts of Africa, Asia and the Middle East that the average person doesn't even know about. The Sudan, Somalia, Qatar, Syria, Pakistan and other countries have been bombed by us as recently as 2009. It was revealed in the press when a secret executive order was enacted during the Bush administration that authorized us to stage attacks in any country
in our efforts to wage the "War on Terror".

This is so long blech. But, the millions of deaths I am referring to have occurred all over the world. We weren't always the ones doing the killing directly but nonetheless we were involved. Examples? All the countries I have previously mentioned as well as, Indochina, East Timor, Central and South America and others. Done.

 
frankiej4189
May 21, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I would laugh at this if it wasn't so disturbing. All the people who were firmly against the War in Iraq (excluding the lies that got us there) for reasons like...

-There's no real victory there
-Any victory that might exist is not achievable
-We have crippled our budget in a multi-year and multi-TRILLION dollar effort
-Some of the bravest men and woman in the world are fighting and dying when they dont need to be

...are now all jacked up for Operation Afghani Freedom (Phrase Copyrighted by Vancam Industries). IMHO i think its because its the all knowing President Obama who's suggesting this and President Bush, but that's neither here nor there.

Please correct me if i'm wrong but TERROISTS HAVE NO COUNTRY! I believe the only terrorist organization that is an official government is Hamas. Why do people think that we can simply march into Afghani territory and wipe out terrorism? I'm no War Expert, i'm no terrorist expert, i dont even know the Middle East that well. But surely common sense would tell us that we should look to our past (and present mind you) to see that invading another country to fight terrorism does not work. It cannot be done. It isn't a blow to American Moral, it isn't indicative of the US military capabilities or saying that our soldiers aren't good enough. This job cannot be done. Even if it can be done it will come at a price of almost a decade of occupation. Which means almost a decade of money poured into the effort and worse yet, almost a decade in which US and allied soldiers are being killed, maimed, and mentally scarred forever. This is such a stupid f**king idea. Out of every completely ass backwards thing Obama, his minions in Congress, Harry Ried and Nancy FUCKING Pelosi, have suggested and plan to do, occupying Afghanistan infuriates me the most. This isn't CHANGE at all. This is the same idiotic mentality that our last administration had except that its coloured black.

 
thoughtprocess
May 22, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

I hear what you are saying. And let me state unequivocally, NOTHING JUSTIFIES the acts committed on 9/11. Condoning those kinds of acts and understanding the motivations behind them are often conflated; when in reality they are two totally different things. We will agree to disagree on the part played by the U.S. Just remember our actions post 9/11 with the loss of 3,000 lives. We started two wars and over killed over 100,000 people. Yet we are perplexed and bewildered by the actions of terrorists. I am not bewildered I know why they are doing what they are doing. I think it is disgusting, though. In the same respect I see the response of the U.S. to be no different. It is criminal and in terms of sheer numbers it dwarfs the deaths caused by Al-Qaeda.

Don't get me wrong. I think every last terrorist, fundamentalist, sociopath should be hunted down and killed/locked away for good. I would love to see every fundamentalist country be transported 400 years into the present and have a more free and equal society. I would like a lot of things. But I know that this is not the job of the U.S. If the U.S. was a pure force for good and was capable of helping out other countries and peoples on such a scale then I would be overjoyed. Unfortunately this is not the case.

We get involved and the death tolls skyrocket. Countries are bombed left and right. Millions of people become casualties of our actions. I would support a much smaller scale, cooperation based, police type action. To hunt down and gain information on terrorist groups that pose a threat to us and the people of the Muslim world themselves. But look at what we have done. Neither of us could begin to imagine the suffering that those people are enduring over there as a result of this country's actions. We have made things a million times worse by trying to show our might.

I think you are also underestimating the impetus that are actions have had in motivating many of these groups. I get most of my information from Michael Sheuer who is one of the U.S.'s foremost experts on Bin Laden and terrorism. He has proven, at least to me, that our actions are a huge factor in why they are attacking us. It is a fact that under Sharia Law when one Muslim nation is attacked it is the duty of all Muslims to rise up and join together to combat the threat.

As sick and disgusting as their acts are, terrorists are motivated by our history in the Muslim world. Bin Laden has clearly stated he is attacking us because of our presence on the Arabian Peninsula, our unconditional support for Israel and complete lack of support for the Palestinians and the fact that much of the Muslim world is poor while their corrupt leaders make all the money from the oil on their lands. Iraq and Afghanistan have also had even more of an effect.

It is very easy to paint people like Bin Laden as pure maniacs without any purpose to their actions. Unfortunately this is not the case. He is a cold and calculating man and if you study his history and actions you begin to see a much different picture than the one that is typically portrayed by the mainstream media.

To defeat an enemy you must understand the enemy. This is just basic militaristic common sense. So as long as we don't understand Bin Laden and the others, and the motivations behind their actions, we are doomed to fail in putting up any meaningful fight against them.

 


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