Login/Sign Up




Is the USA just as bad as Imperial Europe a couple of centuries before hand?
History

lordhaines
May 19, 2009
4 votes
8 debaters
6
2
1
1


+ Add Argument

2
Yes it is.


lordhaines
May 20, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

This is where you may e surprised.

The Soviet Union itself held one party elections, you chose who your local representative would be in the Union of Soviets. No different to the USA, except they have 2 non communist parties.

 
lordhaines
May 20, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: scifi Show

Surely this should go on the other side of the argument?

You are proving the USA is just as Imperial as Europe was a couple of centuries before hand.

Good points made though, well done.

 
thoughtprocess
May 20, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
The USA is, in essence, just like any other government that assumes the dominant status in the world. It follows many of the same trends that any other empire follows.

Now, you will have some people that get offended by these kinds of statements. They will try to brush it off as "America bashing", or say you are only focusing on the negative. I never understand that way of thinking. It is a fact that America is guilty of horrific crimes against humanity. There is no debating this.

I look at it like this. No one in their right mind likes or respects Al Qaeda. They are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents around the world. I am not sure how many exactly but just for comparison I will make a guess and say, 20,000. Could be more or less in reality, I don't really know for sure. Most Americans would look at that and say that they are a group of disgusting terrorists and should be hunted down and killed; every last one of them.

Now, if we are to look at just a few actions of the U.S. government. The Iraq war. By most people's standards that was an illegal/unjust war. As a result of that "mistake", over 100,000 Iraqis are now dead. This is just one war out of many, and just 100,000 deaths out of many more that have occurred as a result of U.S. actions around the globe. The sanctions we helped enact killed over a million in Iraq prior to the war. Over 500,000 children died as a result. We also had been secretly bombing Iraq all throughout the 1990's. This is genocide! There are no excuses for these kinds of actions.

Now if you look at the numbers, the crimes of Al Qaeda pale in comparison.

Couple these actions with Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Thailand, or our support for mass murderers like Suharto in Indonesia, who was responsible for over a million deaths, as well as Saddam Hussein and many others. The large number of democratically elected governments we have helped to overthrow and the economic crimes we have committed with the help of the IMF and the World Bank. Our support for death squads that tortured and murdered hundreds of thousands throughout Central and South America. To me it paints a frightening picture.

Unfortunately most people are rather unaffected by these facts. They think the good outweighs the bad or that it's all just lies. That is why history is bound to repeat itself; because people refuse to recognize the patterns and trends. They are blinded by their patriotism, race or religion.

The U.S., sadly, lost 3,000 innocent people on 9/11. The whole country was rightly outraged. We unfortunately can't understand why other people get so outraged when they lose hundreds of thousands. Whether it is conscious or unconscious, to many Americans our lives are more precious and valuable than others.

 
lordhaines
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thevenerablerob Show

The British Army is not even an Army it is so small. it is less than 100,000 men, so where you get you incorporating hundreds of thousands of men from i do not know.

The US DOES maintain military bases in Europe and elsewhere because i live next to one in the UK, and Germany is still full of them.

And yes I agree that more political parties have to be formed in the US.

 
lordhaines
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: watchman81 Show

An Imperialist nation is a powerful nation that enforces its beliefs on others, and economically screws everybody other for their own good.

Sums America up.

One day of suicide attacks in the US in the 200 odd years it has been a nation is certainly a 'little' event in the grand scheme of things.

The terrorist threat isn't real in the way your government tells you. You do not have thousands of suicide bombers queuing up to attack America. Do you not think your previous government used this to their advantage a little? Obama thinks so. I was there on 7/7 2005. my soon to be father in law lost his hearing in one of the blasts, yet you don't see Britain screaming and shouting and demanding we go fight everybody like the Americans did. We calmly walked out of the tube stations, and the next day we complained public services were still not active. This is Britain's attitude- if you scream and shout and go all hysterical then they have achieved what they wanted. if you shrug it off as a nation and carry on then like before then they have lost. The fact we both now have thousands of troops in countries where it is far easier to kill them than back at home, do you not think they may have wanted this situation? that was my point. Sorry if I upset you, I know 9/11 is sensitive in the US.

 
lordhaines
May 21, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
America is acting now like every other Imperial nation has done in the pat. The fact the don't have an empire is irrelevant, it is impossible to achieve one in the modern world. America was never powerful enough to gain and hold on to one either.

But they are still Imperial in their actions.

 
lordhaines
May 26, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

I have probably seen more of the world than you have.

I have been throughout Africa with the police to gain an insight into their style of policing and to improve relations and to learn how best to deal and respect with Africans in Britain.

I have many summers in north America staying with my family in Alberta, Ontario CAN. and Washington state US. I even rode horses in Montana.
I have walked the Inca trail in South America, and set foot on the beaches of Rio de Janeiro. I own a house in St Vincent, in the Caribbean, and have travelled to nearby Islands all the way to Dominican Republic. I have spent various amounts of time with family in both Australia AND New Zealand. I have been to Thailand, and Hong Kong (pre 1997). I have travelled all over the EU except Luxembourg. And I am currently planning and expedition to climb mountains in Greenland in 2011 to raise money for Equilibirum- The Bipolar Foundation.

So it is YOU that needs to travel my friend, not me. It is my job to travel.

 
lordhaines
May 19, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I believe the USA has been just as guilty of the things it hated the Imperial nations of Europe for doing.

War- The USA goes to war with anyone it feels like in order to gain what it wants. Same as Imperial Europe.

Freedom- The USA gains freedom in the name of 'liberty and freedom' yet doesn't grant them to most of it's citizens until 200 years later.

Democracy- America is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic. It has elections, and the leaders make the decisions. Noting democratic about it. It is the same system as Communism, only more political parties.

Conquer- The USA ravaged and conquered most of the Native American tribes, then goes to war with Mexico over more land. Not to mention the USA going to war with Britain in 1812 just to take more land, which they consequently lost. Imperial tendencies here.

Enforcing your views on others- This is what the US does MORE than Imperial Europe. If the US doesn't like a form of government or system of power in the world they think it is their right to change it. But it isn't.

Religion- The US is full of religious fanatics who think the US is doing God's will by controlling the world and going to war with Islamic countries.

The people of America are taught a one sided history in which they believe they are unbeatable and the upholders of freedom. Whereas in fact they aren't. The people of Europe have more freedom now. They are also led to believe they are leading the 'free world'. Free world? So parts of the world aren't free? There are still major empires are there? Of course not, what it really means is it wants the world to do as the US does. Then terrorism, the US funds the IRA for decades while it terrorist attacks Britain, yet one little incident in America and suddenly it is a new and real threat?

America is just another Empire, same as the others, with one difference- no success.

 
lordhaines
May 27, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thoughtprocess Show

Only telling the truth. It is silly to assume someone has never travelled, especially as I get paid to do what I want all day so I travel a lot.

 
+ Add Argument

2
No it isn't.


scifi
May 19, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Sorry, but we already have an empire. Every country that we have stepped into always has our presence. Germany, Japan, South Korea, Iraq, Israel, France, Britain, Afganistan, Cuba, and many other countries still has US military bases there. We are imperial, it is the nature of the beast.

 
watchman81
May 20, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

"War- The USA goes to war with anyone it feels like in order to gain what it wants. Same as Imperial Europe."

First of all, the USA doesn't just go to war with "anyone it feels like" and I think you already know this was a silly statement. Second, Imperial Europe and the USA aren't the only countries who have gone to war. Every major nation has gone to war for one reason or another. Singling out the USA is absurd.

"Freedom- The USA gains freedom in the name of 'liberty and freedom' yet doesn't grant them to most of it's citizens until 200 years later."

Which is still far quicker than any other country has ever granted the freedoms we have to their citizens. There are many countries that still don't have the freedoms they should have. Even so, it is still a flaw our country had, but it still doesn't prove that the US is an imperialist nation.

"Democracy- America is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic. It has elections, and the leaders make the decisions. Noting democratic about it. It is the same system as Communism, only more political parties."

Seriously? You have got to be kidding. I'd love to hear how the US has the same system as Communism. And America is a Democratic Republic. We elect the leaders we believe will make the right decisions. This is a democracy, just not a democracy in its purest sense.

"Conquer- The USA ravaged and conquered most of the Native American tribes, then goes to war with Mexico over more land. Not to mention the USA going to war with Britain in 1812 just to take more land, which they consequently lost. Imperial tendencies here."

Yes, all of these things happened. The US has a bloody past. So does every other country. Does this mean that all nations are imperialist? I think not. Besides, what you're talking about here happened almost 200 years ago. You still haven't established where this "American Empire" is.
"
Enforcing your views on others- This is what the US does MORE than Imperial Europe. If the US doesn't like a form of government or system of power in the world they think it is their right to change it. But it isn't."

Not too sure about that. Yes, the US has supported regime changes in many other nations, but you still have to concede there are TONS of governments in the world the US doesn't like and yet it hasn't done anything about it. Besides, this is just yet another thing that most other countries have done without being an empire.

"Religion- The US is full of religious fanatics who think the US is doing God's will by controlling the world and going to war with Islamic countries."

Wow, have you ever even been to the US? This is probably the most ignorant statement you have made in this debate. This country is NOT full of religious fanatics. Do religious fanatics exist in America? Of course. Just like they do in England, France, Egypt, Canada, Mexico and every other country on this Earth. The idea that the US is dominated by these religious fanatics who want to "control the world" because God tells them to is just ridiculous and shows how little you know about the United States.

"The people of Europe have more freedom now."

I'd love to know what freedoms Europeans have that Americans don't.


"yet one little incident in America and suddenly it is a new and real threat?"

Wow. 3,000 people dead? Little incident? This threat isn't new, but it definately IS real. And it's not just real to the US Lordhaines. Islamic terrorism has threatened many other countries, including yours. Remember July 7th, 2005?




 
thoughtprocess
May 26, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

Snippety snap. That was a good come back.

 
unlabled00
May 19, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

"It is the same system as Communism, only more political parties."

Thats way off...

 
brivapor
May 19, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
i dont know, but for the sake of argument if russia and china merged?
thats a doozzi

 
thevenerablerob
May 20, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

Scifi, lets first address this; I'm surprised Lordhanes didn't, but I suppose that is because it would affect his arguments.

The United States does not maintain military bases in either France or Britain. Both of these countries have since been able to stand up on their own power with a major military - Britain's incorporating hundreds of thousands of men (outnumbering Canada's military on an 8 to 1 ratio) and rivalling that of the US or Russia.

Politically speaking, the Congress of the United States has to pass legislation permitting the President and Minister of War to attack or instigate a war. This is politically correct method. An Empire's monarchy could just invade if s/he thought s/he had the military might and alliances to uphold the invasion.

The USA manifest destinies proposed to create a larger, single state - a country of large proportions. Conquest of canada was absolutely foolish thinking and nothing more than a desire of conquest, but it isn't only empires who think of conquest. Rebel insurgents wish to conquer their country and rule - doesn't mean they want to create an empire.

Your religion shot was a lame attempt. Every other country in this world is full of 'religious fanatics'. In fact, I haven't a clue what you're attempting to say here except claim that all Christians and those of other religions are phsycho and promote war. This couldn't be further from the truth. The US is not waging war in Iraq and afghanistan on a religious basis. They are upholding justice and ethics. Would yuo rather see the taliban's reign of terror still in control? The taliban still holds an entire sector of civilians hostage, as it is.

The United States had the difficulty of being the mainstay of Democratic Society during the Cold War. This may have given it delusions of power, but hardly Imperialistic ideals and conquest. I am sure Britain would have reacted similarly if it was a superpower during this time - in fact, from history, we learn that it conquested simply to create its empire.

Parts of the world aren't free. Cuba, for example, is a dictatorship. China is rulled under the iron fist of Communism. North Korea is ruled by a despot. The situation isn't as bad as it was decades ago, but there are still Communist societies.

The United States is, indeed, a democracy, as much of the definition that this world has. It is thoroughly impossible to let the people rule, thus we need a leader./s to unite beliefs and platforms. From my knowledge of US elections, there is also an independance party as well as the major two and the Communist party. There are representatives of each state (Governors) whom can be contacted by the people. If a concern is found reasonable, the Governor can appoint it before the Government who may even pass a bill, depending on the ethics and benefits of the suggestion. The one suggestion I would make is to increase the number of parties (have four mainstay parties - more choice and plausible platforms) like Canada.

 
frankiej4189
May 20, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lordhaines Show

I strongly suggest traveling abroad..

 


Use these tags to find similiar debates

martin luther king jr. races racism rights segregation skin color civil rights Empire government history hitler nazi power Rome war WWII