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Should the Pledge of Allegiance Say "One Nation Under God"?
Religion

serge
Feb 05, 2007
71 votes
24 debaters
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48
No


serge
Feb 05, 2007
10 convinced
Rebuttal
The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise or oath of allegiance to
the United States as represented by its national flag.

It says these words: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the
United States of America, and to the Republic for which it
stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and
Justice for all.

The words "under God" were added in 1954. Bellamy's original
Pledge read as follows: I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the
Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with
liberty and justice for all.

It's a violation to the First Amedment which prohibits the
establishment of a national religion by Congress or the
preference of one religion over another, or religion over
nonreligion.

There's no need to include God in such a significant declaration.
You are promising allegiance and loyalty to your flag and your
country, God has nothing to do with it.

Isn't this a violation to the First Amendment?
Is it right to mix a patriotic thing and religion?
Where is the separation of Church and State?
What about the atheists or those who aren't monotheistic, aren't
those Americans?

 
thales
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: shadowfyre

Is your not saying it meant to be incentive enough, or was there an additional reason?

 
palestine4life
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Nationalism is pride, its always good, but i believe that nowadays nationalism is getting between the universal brotherhood that humans should have.



 
serge
Feb 06, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman

First Amendment - Freedom of Religion or non Religion. Remember many Americans are Christians, but others are politheists or atheists.

 
cmotdibbler
Feb 06, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman

Gee, I thought the concept of a representative form of government was derived from Greek and Roman principles, which pre-date Christianity.



 
serge
Feb 06, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
http://www.convinceme.net/viewDebate.php?dib=109

Check how different results can the same debate have in the same site.

 
ltdanjumbo
Feb 06, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman

America was founded on Anglo-Saxon and Christian values.

Hate to break it to you but many of the founding fathers weren't Christians, but deists.

First Amendment - freedom of religion.

Congress shall pass no law RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

It's very simple:
1. Congress can't respect any establishment of religion.
2. Congress can't prohibit the exercise of any religion.

Preventing the government from endorsing your religion does nothing to prevent you from practicing your religion.

 
cancilla
Feb 09, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman Show

Most of the high-profile founders of America were deists. They didn't mean "God" in the same way that a current Christian means "God". They, and Thomas Jefferson in particular, fought hard to keep religion out of our government.

 
chief5
Feb 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman Show

America was not founded on Christian values.

Where did you get that idea.

The Constitution does not mention a god, nor would most of the Christian laws in the bible pass a court test to be legal.

I am not denying that religion does not have its place in our history.

But our country was founded on common defense, commerence, and personal freedoms either pro or con on religion.

Freedom of religion also means the government cannnot hold a view on religion either pro or con.

 
chief5
Feb 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

But is "respects form of religion and thats is what is against the 1st Amendment.

You cannot separage god from religioin.

However you can seperate religion from government and the pledge should not include any ref. to a god.

 
chief5
Feb 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

You are not required say god.

However that is not the main point of the argument.

The government cannnot say it, nor favor any god.

Therefore it should be taken out of the pledge.



 
pleaseentername
Feb 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman Show

Yes, American may have been founded upon Anglo-Saxon, Judeo-Christian ethics, but there are a few problems with this statement.
-First, American is known as the "melting pot" so regardless of the values it was founded upon 200 years ago, these values have changed and should not be weighed as more important than the values of everyone else.
-Second, America was founded on a mixture of Dutch, English, German, French, Spanish, (insert European Country) so.. no it was NOT Anglo-Saxon...

Finally, First Amendment - Freedom of Religion.

'Nuff said right there, but you obviously don't understand, so I will explain further.

Freedom of Religion means that I will choose which religion it is I follow if I do follow one. So if I have to say "Under God" then I am forced to be following the traditions of the Christian Faith, and that violates my freedom of religion.
Also... The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion, yet the words "Under God" indeed recognize and respect the Christian Religion. So it is unconstitutional. Thanks for bringing up a point which makes your side completely wrong !

 
chief5
Feb 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: joshmartin7 Show

Perhaps you ought to check when the work "god" was added to the pledge.

It was added for religious purposes, so who is forcing their ideas on whom?

 
nbcrusader
Feb 12, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

The First Amendment does not require elimination of all references to God. It was clearly drafted to prevent a Church of England situation. A pledge containing "under God" does not equate to a "Church of the United States".

 
chief5
Feb 12, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

You are not required to stand either.

The government is favoring respecting of religion.

The government should remain silent either pro or con on religion.

How about if we change the pledge and replace "god" with a idol.

Think you would stand by in silence?

 
buzzfriendly
Feb 13, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
It’s a matter of need versus want. It is my feeling that the Pledge of Allegiance should remain in its original form. There is simply no need to change it from its original format. Unlike the flag which needs to update as new states were added. Adding “under god” is a want not need to express a personal view.

 
beth27
Feb 14, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

I would say for respect out of your country, you are required to stand. I don't care what they replace God with, you are not required to say the pledge to the flag or if there is any part that you disagree with, skip over it. I don't believe it should be forced upon anyone to say "under God" or even say the pledge and you don't have to.

 
nbcrusader
Feb 16, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

I'm sorry, but the wording of the Constitution is fairly clear: no establishment of religion. If the Constitution was to forbid the government having an "opinion" of God, it would make such a statement. But it does not.

The SCOTUS opinions on the Establishment Clause have varied over time and, as is suggested every time a new position opens on the bench, may change with the voting of an individual judge. That is a political argument.

The plain wording and meaning of the Establishment Clause would not support the banning of the phrase "under God".

 
nbcrusader
Feb 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

A little more effort in understanding the use of the phrase "respecting" in the Constitution would be helpful. Also, the way you suggest using "respecting" has the effect of nullifying "establishment" and reducing it to "acknowledging". Now, that may be your goal, but it is not the intent or meaning of the Constitution.

Perhaps your argument would carry more weight but for the long standing laws "respecting" religion that remain on the books - and do so with SCOTUS approval. The Federal Government still recognizes Christmas - a holiday tied to one specific religion.

The phrase "under God" only takes meaning in the mind of the oath taker.

 
nbcrusader
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

The Free Exercise clause requires significant accommodation of religion.

 
chief5
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

The Constitution says religion. God is part of religion.

You are not required to stand either.

Its still a free country.

 
chief5
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jcmyboy Show

What the founders thought or did not think about religion is not at issue.

The Constitution is the foundation of our country. It prohibits religion and government to mix.

God was not even mentioned in the Constitution.

I am not offended by one word in the pledge. However it is against the Constitution for god to be in the pledge.

Stupid argument. Hardly, where do you draw the line?

Either we obey the Constitution or we get a new one.

 
chief5
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman Show

Not according to the 1st Amendment.

The whole idea of the Constitution is that of giving people the freedom to decide if they want a religion or not.

The government should not be in the business of endorsing religion.

What if next month we decide that the Christian religion is outlawed because most of the founders of our country were Deist.

Think it would matter then.?

 
determinedforce
Mar 11, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." ~ James Madison, 4th president of the United States

 
lockligger
Mar 26, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Actually it does. The mention of a god, as any particular god or as a general theistic principle is an assertion of the existence of such an entity or principle, and so has a religious bent towards theistic traditions. Believe it or not, there are religions and philosophies which either directly refute the possibility or take for granted the nonexistence of a creator deity or other supernatural phenomena.

Furthermore, the phrase is not necessary to the spirit of the pledge, which is one of unity and nationalism, not of prayer: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. The mention of a god would be useful only if the US government derived their authority from divine sources, like the Emperor of Japan, who is held to be descended from gods. Since much of US leadership is selected democratically, a more appropriate phrase would be "under us" or "of the people".

 
ex0pepper
Jul 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: joshmartin7 Show

"that's taking away OUR right... So as you all may think that
we're trying to take away YOUR rights... We're not"
? (:(

and who is WE?
do you hold a political position?
besides, YOU GUYS don't have a right to force belief in god on US.

 
ex0pepper
Jul 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: hamburglar Show

"What makes people think that the Government is declaring any sort
of national religion in the pledge?

I'm sure you can find some very small details in lots of
government documents, and then create some argument
about it. "

whats so wrong about that?

I'm sure i could
and it would be justified


 
ex0pepper
Jul 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

"The government is not favoring any God- it says God in general."

what if your a Polytheist?

 
ex0pepper
Jul 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jcmyboy Show

"The U.S. was founded by men who believed in God. If we take that part out, we are taking a part out of our history."

they weren't the same people who put it in the pledge.


 
Cameron Chrest
Nov 26, 2013
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: milkman Show

America was not based on Christian values. Majority of the Founding Fathers were not Christian.

 
+ Add Argument

23
Yes


milkman
Feb 05, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
America was founded on Anglo-Saxon and Christian values. So what if they were added in 1954? Religion is a basis of this country. First Amendment - freedom of religion.

 
nbcrusader
Feb 09, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Adding the phrase "Under God" does not constitute the establishment of religion. The words don't define or require a belief of any sort.

As noted, the words were added as a counter to the rise of "godless" governments. It is a reference to the United States cultural history, one that is very much alive today.

 
hamburglar
Feb 11, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
What makes people think that the Government is declaring any sort of national religion in the pledge?

I'm sure you can find some very small details in lots of government documents, and then create some bullsh*t argument about it.

 
joshmartin7
Feb 11, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Yes, the amendment DOES say the freedom to religion thing, but does that not apply to us keeping that IN the Pledge? I mean, that's taking away OUR right... So as you all may think that we're trying to take away YOUR rights... We're not, you're the selfish ones that want to change all the stuff that's always been the same for decades!

 
beth27
Feb 09, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Just don't recite that part if it means that much to you.

 
stargatefreak49
Feb 11, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Who cares if it says it or not...they are words that are meaningless so it doesnt matter if they are in it or not.

 
wellwellwell
Feb 12, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
"one nation under God...."
sure. ok by me. more words and chances to screw up.
in fact, in would provide lots of YouTube moments.
for example:
1. Mr. Big Shot on TV forgetting the words.
2. Ms. Big Shot doing the exact same thing in heels.
3. AFV's segment with kids/adults trying to recite it.
4. sports clips with a drunk announcer slurring.
5. cheerleaders not knowing what to do.
6. and finally, keeping more words in the Pledge,
give us all more time in the bathroom before the
game starts.

 
shadowfyre
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Yes it should be, otherwise, I'm not saying it or I'm going to add in "under God" myself

 
beth27
Feb 12, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: chief5 Show

The government is not favoring any God- it says God in general. You are not required to say that part of the pledge, or any part if you please. You are just required to stand in silence.

 
chief5
Feb 15, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

The First Amendment does however require that the government not have any opinion on "God"

The Constitution does not mention the Church of England, it mentions religion period.

We have a SCOTUS created by the Constitution to settle personal views such as yours and mine.

The court in general have ruled against any government influence in religion .

A ref. to god any god refers to a respecting of religion. It does not equate to your view of establishment.

Just as it would apply to the Church of the United States if there such a thing, or in general.

Either way its against the Constitution IMHO.

 
chief5
Feb 15, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

I would say that the Constitution allows that freedom to stand or not to stand rests with the citizen.

You are not required to say the pledge, thats true.

But the debate is can the government endorse the pledge and IMHO they cannot.

To me it's a 1st Amendment issue. The government cannot endorse the pledge using the ref. to a god any god.

 
chief5
Feb 16, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Go back and read the 1St Amendment, it clearly states "respecting" when you add that word it changes your opinion.

You make the same mistake as most people. The Constitutiion does not say an establishment of religion.

It say's "no law respecting an establishment.

Therefore a prayer would be a respecting of religion, a mention of god etc. It does not have to establish a religion, only to mention religion and its an respecting of a establishment, which is against our Constitution.

The SCOUTS have for the most part kept religion and government apart.

The Establishment would certainly ban the use of any government opinion supporting religion.

Added to the fact that the word's "under God" were added for religious purposes how else could you conclude that the mention of a god is clearly un-Constitutional.

I suggest we put the pledge back to it's orginal wording and if you want to add "under God" that's fine with me, but in the offical version it should not be in the text.

 
chief5
Feb 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Show me where the government can allow the favoring of any type of religion, or the practice of religion.

When the government on offical government time allows any religion to be present is against the 1st Amendment.


 
jcmyboy
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
The U.S. was founded by men who believed in God. If we take that part out, we are taking a part out of our history. People need to not be so easily offended by just one sentence in the pledge of alligence. Half the people in America don't care about it anyway, but when God comes up they are quick to judge. It's a stupid argument.

 
chief5
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Yes, it does, and that is why government cannot make or establish any forms of religion, nor can they favor or oppose it.

The government must remain neutral.

I know of no law that denies a citizen the right to worship or have their religious views on display.

The point I believe you are missing is when the government allows or endorses religion then we have a problem.

Take for example a student in school. They can pray, carry a bible, etc.

However they cannot pray if it disrupts the class, or if they are called upon. They cannot with the staff approval say a prayer.

However they are free to pray without the support of staff.

That a prime example of The Free Exercise clause. The Clause does not grant the right of a person to do as they wish. Just as one cannot yell fire in a crowed theater.

 
chief5
Feb 22, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: beth27 Show

The Constitution Say's different. I have the right to judge what and were I want to stand on issues with the government.

When the government requires you to stand then we have lost our basic right to freedom.

It is a citizens right not to respect the government if they so desire..

Again you are missing the whole point of the debate.

How can the government endorse the pledge when it is forbidden by the 1st Amendment.

 
caliryder77
Apr 02, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I dont think that the "under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance should be removed. And Im not trying to say that christianity, or any religion for that matter, is better than anyone else's. That's why we live in America, right? However, if we look at our nation's birth, and the structure it was established upon, anyone can notice that there are obvious religious undertones.

At any rate, people are so sue-happy that there never really seems to be an established right or wrong anymore. Everything has to be said or done so that it's politically correct, which is crap. And it's because of people who whine about violated rights that causes state-representative teachers in public schools to have to give students the option of reciting the pledge or not.

I mean, there are so many people, of non-christian, or religious backgrounds that say the pledge anyways. you dont hear them sniveling about their rights of religious freedom being trampled on.

And I would like to say that taking away the "under God" bit is the endorsment of atheism. and that, people, is a religion too.

 
rsim612
Mar 25, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I've read just about every single argument and throught it all, I have still found that I think everyone is overlooking the simple and clear fact(Yet I did notice a few point out) that the Pledge is not a prayer, it is merely an oath to the United States. If you recall, when the Quakers and other immigrants came to the United States, they were in hopes to break free from the Church of England in order to pursue their own religious beliefs(Puritanism, etc.) Puritanism as well the other religions that originally sparked the Great Awakening were God-based. Now whether these men founded the Constitution or not, it is the principle that the early Americans believed in a God that we must take into account. To choose to remove this portion of the Pledge of Allegiance would be to remove part of America's culture. The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of religion, but is the Pledge forcing you to believe in Christian ideals? Many are misinterpreting the "under God" portion of the Pledge of Allegiance and miscontruing it to mean a highly religious phrase, which it is not. Now, when taken into overall context, the phrase merely means that America lies under a supreme being/thing/idea which the writers of the Constitution did believe in. Everyone is having such a fuss over nothing, why not worry about the increasing crime rate in densely populated cities? What about the massive amount of debt this country is in? The pledge is not required to be said nor do many people say it( as I have noticed over the years). Americans should be glad we are not under the strict and harsh rule such as North Koreans are. If you don't want to pledge your allegiance to the nation you live in, why live here? You are in no way choosing a religion by promising to be allied with the United States. The fact is, the majority of Americans are Christian and the like, whether you like it or not, is not a huge concern of this nation. You are not being violated by the Pledge of Allegiance so why even bother wasting time over it? It is pathetic that people would make such a big deal over such a little phrase, worry about your bills, relatives or one of the thousand and one miscellaneous problems this society has. America is not an entirely free nation, can you do anything and everything you want? No, I don't think so. So next time you argue for something that does not even deserve change, think about other countries that are forced to bow down to dictators and rulers.

 


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