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What is wrong with Communism?
Society

cynicalcitizen
Dec 11, 2008
13 votes
12 debaters
3
2
2
1
1


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1
Nothing


jonjax71
Dec 11, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I agree with Gohard that there is nothing wrong with communism in theory, it is the application of it that is highly defective

 
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3
Everything


gohardorgoyard
Dec 11, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Nothing is wrong with communism per se, as an ideology, it's when communism is put into practice as a governing system that the problems arise; mainly being that communism intellectualizes human nature. Logically the world would be a fairer and less painful place if everything was equal, where there is no nasty bourgeoisie, and no alienated workers, but unfortunately we do not live in the metaphysical realm, we live in the physical one where the state of nature dictates that we compete to survive, from the times of storing your extra food (to have certainty that you will eat tomorrow rather then giving your leftovers away) to paying the mortgage to ensure your children reap the benefits of your hard work, in either circumstance, the fundamental essence of humanity cannot be ignored; we are self interested beings who were created as such to ensure the survival of the human race.

Even when the artificial state of equality is imposed, we see the contradictions of the philosophy even within the newly constructed system. For example in Cuba all you have to do is walk down the street and talk to a few ‘jineteros’ to realise that the supposed ‘communist paradise’ is all a façade. Although the embargo is largely responsible for the desperate economy, it is human nature that provides the evidence that communism will never work in practice. The fact that you have doctors who -by standards of Cuban society- ‘earn well’ (15-20 dollars a month) given the opportunity to leave the country (a privilege that only a government authorised minority of Cubans can enjoy) will buy commodities not accessible in Cuba eg. A games console, then sell it at an extortionately inflated price to people who are supposed to be their ‘brothers and sisters’, this is -in effect- a microcosm for the human condition. Just as the embargo is a macrocosm.

I’m not saying it is right. What I am saying is that it’s the reality.


 
frankiej4189
Dec 11, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

Doesn't that make the theory wrong though?

 
gohardorgoyard
Dec 11, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gohardorgoyard Show

that sounds a bit like i am contradiction myself.

what i mean is that there is nothing wrong with communism as an ideology, because there is nothing intrinsic within the idea of 'ideology' that it has to be either right or wrong, it is just an idea,

what is wrong however is to think that it can be aplied to reality because the arguments for it are fundamentally flawed

 
orbistertius
Dec 11, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gohardorgoyard Show

Marx never argued that we should transform our state into a Communist one because it would be more fair if we did so. He saw the evolution of the means of production as the essence of historical/social change. The progression of the means of production, he thought, was something that could be understood almost scientifically, so that by examining its change in the past we could see where it would go in the future.

His prediction: just as the institutions of feudalism necessarily gave rise to capitalism, the institutions of capitalism would necessarily lead to communism. Discussions of human nature never enter the picture at all, he limits himself purely to a discussion of the forces that act in society and their physical ramifications. That is why he is referred to as a dialectical MATERIALIST.

In no way can any of the Russian, Chinese, or Cuban revolutions be considered the natural outgrowth of capitalism in the way Marx predicted. Their leaders were inspired by Marx's vision of the future, but that vision was a quasi-scientific prediction, not the call to arms they viewed it as. So we need to sharply distinguish two questions: First, what is wrong with Marxism as a description of economic institutions and as a method of prediction? Second, what is wrong with the modern Communist states inspired by Marxist writings?

The former question is much more difficult, but I'd say it has to do with the inherent flaws in Marx's essentialism and historicism. If anyone is interested, I'd recommend Karl Poppers 'The Open Society and Its Enemies" vol. 2.

The latter question is incredibly easy. The self-destruction of capitalism had not yet occurred (that's assuming it ever will), in Marxist terms the means of production were not sufficiently advanced. There were therefore still disagreements over resource distribution etc. Because their ideology could not tolerate these "disputes", Communist states were forced to become hugely authoritarian. The same thing, then, is wrong with a Communist state as with a Monarchist one - the oppressive control exercised by the state over the individual.

 
davidsnowlu
Dec 12, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Communism's fundamental philosophy is that people are naturally good. As we've seen in the past, that is obviously not true. In a communisitc society, you work for the good of the whole and earn the same as everyone else, regardless of how productive or skilled in your trade you are. That means, a retard who sits in a puddle of his own drool all day, makes as much as a genius with an IQ of 212 and a degree from MIT.
Is that right?
Communism works in small, willing groups of less than 100 people. An I do mean willing.

 
davidsnowlu
Dec 12, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
What is this? The basis of communism isn't about dictators, it's about the people. Most of you people talk about communism like everyone is working for the leader, not for the benefit of everyone.
It just so happened that Russia had their communist system set up poorly; there was and still is a lot of corruption in the Russian government.

 
jonjax71
Dec 11, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gohardorgoyard Show

The Cuban governement is not an actual pure communist system, it incorporates elements of communism as it does socialism, Marxist-Leninisms, totalatarianism and other 'isms" into a new-hybrid governement "Castro-isms"

By the by and by, for those who may not know, the term "jinetero" used by Gohard is a male prostitute, it is the slang form of the Spanish word for jockey. Thanks to my Cuban neighbors for kickin' the knowledge to me about many Cubanisms.

 
gohardorgoyard
Dec 11, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: frankiej4189 Show

exactly my point, if it cannot work in practice then the theory is flawed, which is what is wrong with communism.

also jinetero/a is not used explicitly as a term for prostitution it can also refer to street hustling.

 
davidsnowlu
Dec 12, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ranger65 Show

The bible stories were just meant to make better people. Religion was a way in our past to control people's actions. In poverty, you are much more likely to commit a crime.
Some were just about goodwill; in ancient times if you didn't give a traveler full room and board they would literally die. People didn't have much, so it meant a lot to be generous. The reason the couple in this sotry were killled was because they lied about the amount they gave.

 
davidsnowlu
Dec 15, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ranger65 Show

It is about the people as a single entity; as a whole.

 


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