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Christianity vs. Pastafarianism
Religion

mindsend
Feb 04, 2007
54 votes
15 debaters
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10
Go Christ!


shadowfyre
Feb 04, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Are you serious people? Let me guess, this was posted by a 14 year old experimenting with drugs...Seriously, thats not even a real topic, God is real.

 
riddar
Feb 04, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: bigwillie

My annoyance with the FSM, as you call it, is that it is borne in a way solely meant to mock people who believe in God. While not a Christian, I see no reason to go so far out of one's way to mock a belief of any type. It seems to be a way to invite hatred, really.

Besides, the preaching of the belief in God are that of kindness and decent moral values (yes, over hatred of Gays, which is admittedly a problem in the organized church today). By supporting the FSM industry (buying the product as a badge that you are intellectually superior to those Goddies), you simply exacerbate the tension between Christianity and Atheism.

 
riddar
Feb 04, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: bigwillie

"FSM isn't a way of mocking Christianity. It's simply a
counterpoint to the Christian's belief that there is a higher
being. "

I can't imagine someone who writes as sensibly as you believing that. The entire premise of the FSM, as Dawson has so eloquently pointed out so many times in front of auditorium's of adoring college students, it that it is as plausible as Christianity's premise. While this is certainly true on a scientific (and yes, on a sensible) level, this very statement makes clear that the FSM is meant to point out the absurdity of Christianity (and by extention all other theistic religions). If you simply disagree with Christianity, that is because it was the result of a very personal decision. If you wear an FSM T-shirt, it is because you want to make it very clear to Christians exactly what you think of the concept of God: that believing in him is as absurd and ridiculous as believing in a giant Spaghetti monster.

A 'counterpoint' would be saying that you are an atheist, which is perfectly reasonable. By supporting FSM, you not only deny the theistic religions, but go out of the way to laugh at it with the satirical concept.

 
riddar
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: wooster

"Yes. God is just as real as the FSM. You cant prove the FSM does NOT exist! I've always wanted to say that."

Thank you for proving my point so succinctly and perfectly.

 
bridgetheory
Feb 08, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: buckrogers Show

You know why FSM is so stupid? Because it shows how much you blow Dawkins. As an atheist I really hate being lumped in with you fools. You're like groupies. Can't you come up with your own metaphor. "No", he says, "I can't be creative, I've relegated my life to being a big reactionary meat-robot." HAHAHAHAHAH...lets make fun of Christians...yippeeeeee!!!

 
nbcrusader
Feb 09, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Sophomoric arguments against Christianity are a staple of youth today.

 
nbcrusader
Feb 10, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: winawer Show

Learning to frame an argument that invites reasoned debate may be a better starting point. Reductio ad absurdum is a lousy starting point.

 
tggdan3
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: winawer Show

Actually pastafarianism was in response to a biology class teaching religion along with evolution. He basically said that if any yahoo with an unproven theory can get taught in biology class, why cant FSM be taught there too?

This isn't really a rebuttle, as I agree that FSM is AS logical as following any other book written by mortals that claims to know the true nature of their deity.

And reducto ad absurdum IS a qualified and legitimate way to handle a debate.

 
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44
Go Flying Spaghetti Monster!


buckrogers
Feb 04, 2007
6 convinced
Rebuttal
FSM, is not a mockery of Christianity, but a metaphor for how elements of Christianity try to mock science and logic.

Intelligent design states, if X wasn't caused by evolution, it must be caused by god. This is inductive not deductive reasoning. If X wasn't caused by evolution, then all that proves is that X wasn't caused by evolution and a new theory must be put forward. Creation by god is one theory, but it is a theory that shares as much evidentiary merit as creation by the flying spaghetti monster.

consider the fact, Boticelli did not paint that piece of art work. Which of the following statements is true:

1)Boticelli did not paint the art work
2)Rubens painted the art work

Of course, anyone could have painted the art work, to assume that Rubens painted it just because Boticelli didn't makes no sense! Yet that is exactly what intelligent design proponents are saying. If it wasn't evolution, then it must have been MY god. Not Zeus, Odin, or the Flying Spaghetti monster. Thus Intelligent design merely takes credit for what we don't know rather than telling us what we can know. this is not science, and hence I believe as much in the FSM as I do god.

 
mindsend
Feb 04, 2007
3 convinced
Rebuttal
The Eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts"

1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like a Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.

2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.

3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This In Your Thick Heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person. Samey - Samey. One Is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal and Fuchsia.

4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off the TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.

5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B*******.

6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build Multimillion-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick):

1. Ending Poverty
2. Curing Diseases
3. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable
I Might be a Complex-Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM the Creator.

7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go Around Telling People I Talk To You. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?

8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses A Lot of Leather/Lubricant/Las Vegas. If the Other Person Is Into It, However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear a CONDOM! Honestly, It's A Piece of Rubber. If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did It I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.

 
mindsend
Feb 04, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
The Flying Spaghetti Monster has as much merit as god does.

 
winawer
Feb 09, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

"Sophomoric arguments against Christianity are a staple of youth today".

Sanctimonious ad hominem attacks are a staple of those blinded by religion. So what's your point?

 
bigwillie
Feb 04, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: shadowfyre

Prove it.

For now, I go with the FSM.



 
bigwillie
Feb 04, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: riddar

Good point.

But, the FSM is like any other disagreement with another's opinion.

Inherent in your disagreement with someone else is that you believe you are right and they are wrong, making you intellectually superior. If one tried to avoid doing this, opinions and debates wouldn't exist.

FSM isn't a way of mocking Christianity. It's simply a counterpoint to the Christian's belief that there is a higher being.

If supporting the FSM means I'm creating tension, so be it. Questioning your own beliefs is something that everyone needs to do at some point, even Christians. A little debate and thought never hurt anyone.

I do respect the Christian's faith support of kindness and morality. I in no way think that since their may be no God, that the human race may show no respect towards one another.

I stick up for the Christian faith quite regularly, actually. I believe it doesn't harm anyone, and has unfairly earned a bad reputation. I do however, dislike when the idea of God is shoved down my throat with no evidence or logic.


 
hyperion
Feb 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
what makes christians think they're right? pastafarians have just as much chance at being right as they do.

 
winawer
Feb 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Pastafarianism could be seen as the ultimate demonstration of the flaws in Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager). Pascal's Wager, in short, states that because the expected gain is effectively infinite (i.e. Heaven) if God exists and you believe, and the expected loss is effectively infinite (i.e. Hell) if you don't believe and He exists, when compared to the finite losses and gains associated with believing and not believing if you turn out to be wrong there is no other rational decision than to believe in God.

However, one of the most crippling problems with Pascal's Wager is that it assumes that only the Christian God might have something to say about whether or not you're going to Hell or Heaven. There are a multitude of religions, many of which make contradictory and mutually-exclusive claims (indeed, even some sects of Christianity make competing claims). Thus, if you believe in the Christian God, but it's actually the Hindu pantheon which is running the show, you're going to Hell anyways, and your loss turns out to be infinite anyways.

If we extend this criticism, there's no rational reason to believe, given the number of religions which currently exist and the fact that not all arose simultaneously, that there might not be a deity which is actually the Truth which has not yet revealed itself, or which may never reveal itself. In this light, Pastafarianism makes perfect sense: it's just the latest in a string of deities to which the Wager might be applied. (Though one has to wonder what the Pastafarian version of Hell might be...seas of watery tomato sauce?)

Thus, the argument boils down to - as is so often the case in religious debates - "Nuh-uh, you're wrong and I'm right. Evidence? Who needs evidence! I was told *directly* by my deity that He/She/It exists, and *you* are going to *burn*, my friend."

 
bigwillie
Feb 09, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Yes, the youth today need to stop questioning traditional thinking and should mindlessly accept everything that is taught to them. Damn them and their independent thinking! (That's all sarcasm, so no one is confused.)

Progress is for suckers, apparently.

For clarification, I love the moral values of kindness and compassion that Christianity teaches, but I find the idea of an all powerful being ludicrous.

 
winawer
Feb 10, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: nbcrusader Show

Perhaps you might wish to actually reply to one of the arguments that are already in place above, one of which I provided, instead of simply acting as a troll. Where, exactly, is *your* "argument that invites reasoned debate"? Simply pulling terms like reductio ad absurdum off of Wikipedia does not make a useful contribution to this debate.

 
awlasirius
Feb 11, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
FSM'sm loves pirates..im a pirate... i love the flying spaghetti monster

 
marino
Jan 07, 2009
1 convinced
Rebuttal
The FSM actually has a point. ;)

 
wooster
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: shadowfyre

Yes. God is just as real as the FSM. You cant prove the FSM does NOT exist! I've always wanted to say that.

 
bigwillie
Feb 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: riddar

"A 'counterpoint' would be saying that you are an atheist, which is perfectly reasonable. By supporting FSM, you not only deny the theistic religions, but go out of the way to laugh at it with the satirical concept."

Stating my belief and expecting another to take that as evidence of my belief doesn't make sense. I need evidence or an effective reason as to why that belief is true, and the FSM is an effective reason as to why I reject the Christian theory of a higher power.

Second, pointing out absurdities in the opposition's argument is the whole point of debate, is it not? Why should I refrain from this when religion is involved? I refuse to "play nice" so I don't hurt people's feelings. I won't go so far as to mock or belittle them, but I have no problem with saying that I believe they are wrong.

Lastly, how is a shirt bearing the image of the FSM any different or worse than a shirt conveying religious beliefs?(or any other belief for that matter.) My shirt says that I think the concept of God is ridiculous, while the religious shirt says that not only is there a all-power full entity controlling the universe, but I will burn in a place called Hell for all eternity for not believing so.



 
tggdan3
Feb 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: bridgetheory Show

Dawkins didn't create the FSM- he stole it to use as his own example.


 
dereksemeraro
Mar 07, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
FSM is a parody religion.

 
redchango
Feb 27, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I think the FSM is a very good example of the nature of religious belief. So what if it is a new concept and the God of Abraham is a few thousand years old and created by an ancient barbarian desert tribe in the Middle East. They are both the same thing ... made up.

 


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