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Does the existence of Evil forgo the reality and presence of God in our universe and in our lives?
Religion

contendingforchrist
Sep 24, 2008
8 votes
11 debaters
6
5
4
1
1


+ Add Argument

3
No


apathetic
Sep 25, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: contendingforchrist Show

Let me start off by saying WOW, good argument and got my convince. Furthermore, let me say I am Christian and that I do think there is a solution to the problem of Evil; I am merely playing Devils Advocate (pun intended.)

I do however see a flaw in your argument in that you contend that God gave Adam and Eve free will because he designed them in his own likeness. The problem with this is that you have to prove God has free will and that’s actually trickier than it sounds.

Instinctively we make the argument
1.God is a perfect being
2. To have free will is more perfect than not having free will
3. Therefore God must have free will.

But this has a problem. We have absolute no proof for line 2. In fact we have an argument that suggests otherwise.
.
1. God is a perfect being.
2. Perfect beings must always act in the most perfect way.
3. To have free will is to be able to choose more than one action
4. If something MUST do the most perfect action it could not choose otherwise.
5. A perfect being can not have free will.
6. Therefore God does not have free will.

Here is another, Unrelated argument.

1. God is all knowing.
2. To know all is to know the future.
3. God knows the future.
4. The future will include acts of God.
5. God knows the future acts of God
6. To know one’s future acts is to say it must do one thing
7. To must do one thing is to not have free will.
8. Therefore God does not have free will because he knows what he will do.

This argument also has ramifications on OUR own free will. If God knows the future and how I will be then he must know our actions as well and can we have free will? All these arguments come under the compatablism debate. Christian tend towards being compatablist because the future knowledge of God demands Determinism but Christian Theology requires free will.

So here is the challenge. Create an interpretation of free will that allows for Determinism and also negates the argument that a perfect being can’t have free will. Otherwise, God has no free will and could not have given it to us as a part of his likeness and your left wondering why we have free will AND why evil exists.

 
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Introduction: In this thesis I will attempt to explain how the existence of Evil doesn’t forgo the reality and presence of God in our universe and in our lives.

A. Why does God allow evil?

Freewill- Jehovah the God of the Bible allows evil to exist because of Freewill. When he created mankind. He created mankind according to his image and likeness V1. He didn’t create humans to be meaningless and unemotional. But rather as valuable and productive creations. When mankind was created everything was “good” V2 until Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden fruit which God warn them not to eat V3. Upon that act of disobedience, God couldn’t allow them to continue to live in Paradise and so within the offspring’s of Adam death spread V4. God being righteous couldn’t associate himself with sinful man because it was not in his nature V5. Nevertheless God is also full of mercy V6. The very act of Adam and Eve hiding from the face of the Lord showed that they were ashamed and frightened of what they had done V7 and so God created the first atonement V8. The constant theme throughout the Bible is redemption. Men and Women alike aren’t saved by the Law because as humans we err and so the Law couldn’t save us only God’s Grace which came in the form of himself incarnated as a human. He lived a perfect life on earth in order to become our perfect sacrifice for the remission of our sins V9. For Christians the problem with evil has already been defeated by the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus. The climax of Jesus was the resurrection because it established the very premise of his coming on earth, which was to redeem mankind once and for all. When Jesus resurrected he made a bold statement saying V10 and now Christians don’t fear death V11. If God were to judge evil today, all uncovered men and women would perish away under his wrath. Thank God that He is patiently waiting for them to turn to the Savior and be saved from His terrible wrath. One day evil will be quarantine in one spot called hell and until that day comes, my life will serve the Lord for all the days of my life. Amen

-Till He Returns

God Bless

__________________________________________

Verse By Verse

V1- Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26

V2- Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. Genesis 1:31

V3- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

V4- Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12
V4- Behold, in iniquity I was birthed and in sin, my mother conceived me. Psalm 51:5

V5- Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: James 1:13

V6- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, Ephesians 2:4

V7- They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8

V8- Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Genesis 3:21

V9- For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

V10- I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:8

V11- But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

V11- For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

























































 
jonjax71
Sep 25, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: contendingforchrist Show

God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38
Jer 18:11
Is 45:7
Amos 3:6
Ezek 20:25

God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14
Deut 7:16
1 Sam 15:2,3
1 Sam 6:19

There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9
Eccl 9:5
Is 26:14


 
jonjax71
Sep 25, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: apathetic Show

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5
Gen 18:20,21
Gen 3:8

God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14
eut 7:16
1 Sam 15:2,3
1 Sam 6:19



 
apathetic
Sep 25, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Can't....tell....who's.....rebutting who....

 
jonjax71
Sep 25, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

***** Of course most naysayers will not actually give the Bible an honest assesment. They usually pick and choose bits and pieces or mimic others to malign the word of God. ****

Any book is meant to be read from start to finish not by jumping around, in particular educational or text books must be read from the beginning to the end to continously learn from them and grasp all the elements of the subject covered.

It's the preachers, ministers, reverends who take the bible out of context, they jumpr around from one bokk to another, from one verse to another extracting those quotes they want to fortify their positions. They don't start at the beginning and read all the way through because they know there are a stream of contadictions and counter views of their stance if they would read staight through



 
helpme
Sep 25, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Here is my take on this issue:

The existence of evil does no harm to the reality of God. It can actually bolster the argument for his existence.

The Bible describes God as holy, righteous, just, and sovereign. These attributes tell us the following about God:

a) God is capable of preventing evil, and
b) God desires to rid the universe of evil.

If both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil, and desires to prevent evil, why doesn't He do it?

Maybe a good way to look at this issue would be to consider some alternative situations for how people might want God to deal with evil.

(1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.

Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil.They could:

a) respond to His love and trust Him or
b) choose to do their own thing.

They chose to do their own thing. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them. Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us, and those around us.

2) Another choice would have God compensating for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100% of the time.

For example, if a drunk driver causes an automobile accident, God would have to keep him and the people in the other automobile from getting harmed. God would have to keep the drunk driver from crashing into power lines, buildings, etc. because these things would cause innocent people to suffer.

OR

If a father gets addicted to drugs and spends all of his money on drugs, God would somehow have to provide both the food and the social needs of the children so that they would not have to be adversely affected by the evil of the parent.

In such a world, God would be like a bad parent who enables a wayward child’s destructive behavior. There would be no consequences for one’s actions, and as a result no one would learn integrity, purity, honor, responsibility, or self-control. There would be no “good consequences” for right behavior, no “bad consequences” for wrong behavior. What would people become except more deviant and sinful?

3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.

Instead of these or other options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12).

There will come a day when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to judge them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then He IS concerned about evil.

When He created the Old Testament Laws, He established laws that discourage and punish evil. He judged nations and kings who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially on the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).

We live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit. So He is able to do for those who turn from evil and call on Jesus to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17).

God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God for why He does not prevent all evil - we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences - Jesus Christ!





 
helpme
Sep 25, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

Your forgetting so many other juicy bits.

All of these issues are solved if we have a good grasp on hermeneutics.

Most people with any wit can make this, or any book, say what they want. But, in order to understand what the author intended we must study it in the correct context including, but not limited to, historical context, audience, grammatics, ect. An honest study, incuding these things, will satisfy most questions. Of course most naysayers will not actually give the Bible an honest assesment. They usually pick and choose bits and pieces or mimic others to malign the word of God.

 
brivapor
Sep 25, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
its funny
when I was in Italy, arguably the most christian country in the world
it seemed that the people reveired Mary more than Jesus

I wonder why that is

 
+ Add Argument

2
Yes


cynicalcitizen
Dec 11, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
I see I'm the first person pushing this point, so I'll guess I'll have to make my point a good one.

Why would a god allow his (or her) people to laungish in our current terrible state. I think almost everyone in the world who dies is going to go to hell for not doing more to help those who suffer in our world. For example, it would only cost every American $33.00 to get clean water to everyone on Earth. Yet it isn't done. Surely for letting these many horrible deaths occur we'll all go to hell, right? And if not, then God/Allah/etc is evil for allowing that suffering to go unpunished by those who could prevent it.

 
Rashon Miller
Sep 24, 2012
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Yes because if you believe in a deity that is all good, all knowing this god would not fit that description! He would be the creator of Evil if you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, why would god introduce a stumbling block before his very own children? For instance if you have two children who love and respect you and have never disobeyed, would you test them? The test in itself displays a lack of trust. It demonstrates a lack of knowlegde on the creators part as well as if their loyalty wouldn't be known to him without this test? Further all throughout the bible man is told to feed hungry take care of sick, not to murder, shelter homeless, why would god ask you to do something he hasn't done for all his creation? These basic human necessities and we are not told to wait on Jesus return to do them we are to do them now so why isn't he? Why would we as imperfect humans be tested more than adam and eve with just one simple dietary restraint? If you went to your place of employment say an office and all the workers are spinning in chairs jumping on desk being rude to customers you would deduce that their was no managment or poor managment at the very least, the Absence of Evidence is Evidence of Absence.

 


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