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Mormons (Fresh Start)
Religion

emeraldstone
Jan 03, 2008
19 votes
10 debaters
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Brett Stubbs
Jan 04, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

Let me break it down, one by one, some ways that you have falsely described our beliefs.

-He is the Son of the father (God), born as a result of the father impregnating Mary.

- repsonse - that's how he was born on Earth. The Only Begotten. Chrsitians believe that too. He wasn't created on that day.

-He is not eternal because he was created by the father and had a beginning.

- response - He is Alpha and Omega. He was with the Father from the Beginning. He is Eternal.

-He is not equal to God.
- repsonse - He is equal to God. We consider them one in the same in glory.

-He is not God, but the son of God.
- response - He is the Son of God, but still God. He is sometimes even referred to as our Father. We believe he is the LORD in the Old Testament. And that by him and threw him all things were created.

-He is the spiritual brother of all, including Satan because the Father has many children.
- response - He is our Spiritual brother. Most Christian sects also believe this. We didn't invent moving away from the concept of the Trinity.

There is no "Christian Church". There are hundreds of sects that consider themselves Christian. We just believe they have no authority.

I would say infact, that we revere Jesus Christ just as much if not more than most Christian Churches.

We believe He is the literal head of our church.
We believe our priesthood comes from Him.
We believe Salvation and Exhaltation can come only from Him.
We believe He is Jehovah.
We believe He is the LORD of the Old Testament.
We believe He is the great I am, the Prince of Peace, the King of Kings, He is Alpha and Omega, and that all things were created through Him and By Him, and by no other name.
We believe He Lives. Literally.
We believe He came to earth to make a Sacrifice for sin.
We believe He is perfect. He is the Lamb. He came to lay down His life that we may have eternal life.
And most importantly we believe because of that, that He is our Savior, the focal part of our Plan of Salvation.

I think that makes us Christian. And there's really nothing to rebuttal. Don't tell me I need to study my religion either. You can tell us what you think our beliefs are, but we know what they are. We attend seminary for 4 years, and most of us serve 2 year missions in HIS name. We read the scriptures that speak his words daily. We have no preachers, we are our own preachers. We have no paid ministry, because we all have the chance of being called up. We attend church weekly, and if there is one thing I KNOW, it is my religion. We are taught nothing is more important than our faith in Jesus Christ. And no single event on earth was more important than His everlasting atonement. That is what we teach, that is what we believe, and it is He that we try to emulate. We take upon ourselves His name in baptism. It is absolutely rediculous that most people don't consider us Christian. It is complete ignorance.






 
emeraldstone
Jan 03, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Gather round, lets have a fresh start on the Mormons debate!

Definition of Mormon: The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints (does not include: The Fundamentalist, The Church of Jesus Christ, The Community of Christ, or any other successions from the original Church)

All righty lets cover the first things first:
1. We are not polygamists so no polygamist arguements
That pretty much covers the first part.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 03, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Why we are christian (simple explaination): We are the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Later Day Saints.

Definition of "Christian" (Wikitony): A believer in Christianity
Definition of "Christianity" (Wikitony): A monotheistic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ

Definition of "Christian" (Dictionary.com): Of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or his teachings

Definition of "Christian" (Merriam-Webster): One who possesses belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

Definition of "Christian" (YourDictionary.com): A person possessing belief in the teachings of Jesus as the Christ, or in a religion based on the teachings of Jesus

The list goes on and on. Finishing up the simple explaination of why we're Christian: We believe in Jesus Christ. A definition of Christian from all the above (and many unlisted) sources says that belief in Jesus Christ or his teachings defines a Christian.

P.S. Please feel free to ask me any questions you have

 
helpme
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

It's hard for me to be unbiased here so thank you. I was telling my wife today that If we, for a moment, set aside who is right and wrong and looked at it from a distance, it would be obvious that the Mormon is not Christian and the Christian is not Mormon. The beliefs are similiar in the main Characters but they differ greatly in the roles of those characters and result in a great chasm of separation.



 
booyakasha
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Mormonism is the most ridiculous religion ever. Anybody ever read the Book of Mormon? It's like Lord of the Rings or something. What a crock of sh*t.

 
helpme
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

I understand all of that. So that is why I went to the official LDS websight and and also looked at the Three main books other than the Bible that the Mormon church uses for teaching and doctrine. I also looked at the various writtings of JS and some other Prophets and Apostles of the LDS and I am confident that what I say is correct.

One example; You say you believe in a trinity. I say the Mormon church is not trinitatian but tritheist. In fact the church is polytheist.

Look, I don't hate any of you. You are free to believe what you want. I just know that Our churches are different enough not to be the same.

Respond to this.
Based on your criteria of who is a Christian. We both believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ and need him for salvation. But I reject the teaching of Joseph Smith and most of the teachings of the Mormon Church.

Will I recieve the same reward as you from God?

Will I become a god?

Would you feel free and comfortable to leave your temple for good and worship at my church?


 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

And I think that is fine. Just as long as you let me call myself a Christian :)

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

No mormon believes Christ was married to many mary's. Some believe He was married to Mary Magdeline. Although that is not Doctrine. I also noticed the other "doctrine" you pulled was from Journal of Discourses, which is not mormon doctrine.

"Which basically means as soon as what the Bible says conflicts with what the BoM says... the Bible is wrong."

It means there are many translations of the bible, and that much of the bible was lost in translation. Hand written from Monk to Monk. Parts changed and rearranged. That's what it means. The bible conflicts itself enough that we don't have to compare its conflictions to the bom. The gospels often tell different tales of the same story.

"your primary prophet is Joseph Smith whereas Jesus is the Christian Messiah."

JS is a prophet in the same vein as Moses, Abraham, Isiah, etc. In no way is he Jesus Christ. A prophet and Messiah are two different things. He's "our" prophet because Christ told him to restore his Gospel in our time. a moses for our generation. The two are not comparable. One is man and one is Diety.

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Yes. He's not a Man. We don't think he is a Man. We believe he created the Universe we know. We believe He is all powerful and all knowing. We just also happen to be that he had to go through a similiar test (as we believe earth is a test), and progressed to His state.

"Christianity's Jesus Christ sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, LDS's Jesus Christ sweat blood "as it were", and manage to avoid all of the Biblical teachings of Christ's sacrifice upon the cross and how his act was an atonement for sin."

Absurd. The atonement is at the center of our religion. The absolute center. Nothing is more important to us, nor talked about more. Go to lds.org and look up atonement and you will see thousands of talks about it. You're getting some misinformation. We just don't wear crosses, because it is a sign of His death, but we are here tell everyone that He Lives.

It is the same Christ.

Just because we believe His nature is different than other sects, which by the way many sects have many differing beliefs of His nature...as was the discussion of the Necine Creed of 300 AD.











 
dast
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

So let's throw dictionaries out the window, is that what you're saying? Or do you mean you only like dictionaries when they agree with you?

Is Mormonism mainstream Protestant? Absolutely not.
Does it seem that way in some ways? Yes, it does. Anyone who has read the Book of Mormon should clearly see that.

If Christ created all things, did he create the Father and the Holy Spirit?
If Christ existed as one God, why did he need a mother? Which father gave him a body, too? Or is he a special child--only a mother, not a father?
Who was Jesus referring to when he said HIs "father" all those times?
Why did Jesus pray to know and do the Father's will, if they were the exact same and completely all-knowing and all-powerful?
See, there are plenty of questions--just using the Bible--to get all kinds of answers from all kinds of Christian(TM) churches...
Bottom line: It doesn't work. At least, not for me.

For many Christians(TM) to think about:
Why were there prophets or apostles, but now there are none, yet everyone can still be saved?

So, which two Christian(TM) churches--out of all the thousands-- believe in *exactly* the same Jesus?
Which *ONE* Christian church worships the true God?
Or do you say it's possible to believe differently and all believe the same?? All the Christian churches believe differently.
Is this logical?--"We all believe differently, but we're all ok; you believe differently, but that's not ok." What?? So do Baptists believe that Protestants can be saved? Does Methodists believe Catholicism and Calvinists are just as likely to be saved? (If anyone can answer this question, I'll debate that; but this topic of "Are Mormons Christians?" is pretty lame for Christians to be debating--if they were to step back and take a breath first.)

Look, it might seem harsh, but it's pretty logical--when it comes to Christians, it's either Catholics (the original) or the LDS (restored). Why? Most all the others broke off from the Catholics. (Unless you don't believe that God's authority is needed for His church, of course...)

Nevertheless, anyone--whether they claim membership in a church or not--who believes in Jesus as his one Savior and purports to follow Jesus, I'll give the definition of "Christian" to.

 
dast
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

Still, is that the only possible solution to the problem of evil? No; in fact, there have been a few. You might be interested in learning the Mormon concept of choice and consequences, everyone--from the beginning to the end--having a chance at some point of hearing and accepting Jesus and his gospel, how much God's power extends and why, etc.

 
dast
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

So you're saying all Christians(TM) are in direct and exact agreement on the interpretation of the Bible? If you can say "yes", then I'll accept lots of your answers and answer them.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

Thank You.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 04, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

And for that, I believe mormonism is the only religion that has an explanation. God did ecist before the universe existed because He created it. In our belief, this life, is just a phase. A step in the process of change. In this we have a physical body, and free agency. We also believe that we existed before the earth was created as well. (we also don't believe God created the earth in 6 days, but in 6 stages of time, of how long each took we don't know) And with this free agency comes decision. And learning right from wrong. Some will use this agency to do bad, and others good, and always; both. It is an individual test, and the cliff notes given come from teachings of religion. As bad as man has used religion, and they have tried to use it for their personal gain, it's tenents still teach mandkind the way of peace and happiness. Things like the golden rule for example are strong tenents of both Bhuddism and Christianity.

I mean really people bag on Christianity quite a bit, but what Christ actually told us, how to act, how to conduct our lives are certainly words of wisdom.

Outside of the realm of how people have mixed politics and religion, at the core, what they teach us is how to treat each other, and are all for the most part, to become better people. To enrich and improve not only our lives, but those around us. And the decision is always there. It is as drastic as: we can help starving people in Africa, or we can pretend it's not happening. Or as simple as we can choose to ignore the guy who tapped our bumper and didn't really cause any damage, or we can sue the crap out of him. And as complicated as we can forgive the person who wronged us, or we can let the anger fester, and influence every future decision we make. We can yell at our kids or encourage them when they mess up. These decisions are everywhere, all the time.

If something bad does happen to us, it's not because God willed it, or hates us, it's because the guy who wanted to stab us did. And the world can be an extremely terrible place. And it can be a great place, and it is all based on what we do. But it is important for them to take place. It's not God's job to get involved, and if he did He it would interfere with our agency. And he can't do that. He can't make us do something, he can influence us to do good, but he's not going to make us make the right decision. It would be like the teacher taking the test, not the student.

That is at least my point of view on it. I can definitely understand yours though. Wow, that was a long post.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Once again from Brigham Youngs Journal. It's NOT DOCTRINE. This can't be said enough. We believe he was immaculately conceived. B.Y. said a lot of crap in his Jounral. A prophet is a prophet only when he speaks to the people. We transcribe everything anyone does. We are record keepers. Makes for an interesting read. But we all know it's not doctrine. The church is very strict about what is and what isn't doctrine. Two of your main arguments are based on the beliefs of some church leaders written in journals and not official lds doctrine. Yes some believe that he married. But it doesn;t change the fact that it's the same person. IT"S STILL THE SAME PERSON.

Absurd. I believe George Washington had an affair when married to Martha. You don't believe he did. IS George Washington still GW? Yes. So I don't get your point.


Now many faiths differ on his nature. Which is why the Necine creed came about. And many sects don't follow the creed anymore. Most don't believe in the Holy Trinity. And yet, they are still Christians...

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Exactly. Good you got doctrine this time. But this doesn't describe Christ. He's speaking of the Father. And he's speaking only of his beginnings. We believe his body is flesh and bone, but Eternal, and an all powerfula and all knowing God. I take comfort in this. That he's not some magical ambiguos cloud of love. Interesting that in every movie that "God" is in, he is played by a person...and this person is never represented by Christ, nor by a cloud, or a mist. How come no one freaks out then?

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

All of those things you described are attributes of the Father. Not Jesus Christ.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

We do not believe god was ever a man

The Book of Mormon never condradicts the bible and we believe the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Jesus Christ. A verse in the Bible predicts the Book of Mormon

"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this
people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their
wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men
shall be hid." Isaiah 29

I have never heard of the "Journal of Discourses" and do
not place my beliefs in it

We do believe that Jesus was in Gethsemane and we do still
believe in the cross though we believe the atonement came from the suffering in Gethsemane

Our prophet is not Joseph Smith it is currently Gordon B. Hinckley and a prophet is just a leader of our church kind of like a pope

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

We believe in the same Jesus.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

What Joseph Smith meant was is that we were made in his image and we would see him as "man" or like us.
"And God said: let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him. Male and female created he them."
Genesis 1:26-27

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

There is only one God; that would be God.
True: we don't believe in forgiveness of sins by grace alone
nor do we believe in the trinity.

We do not teach there are multiple gods! Jesus is the son of God as are we all. SECRET TEMPLE RITUALS!?!?!?!? What are you talking about? The temple is a holy place, a place of God, a place to feel the Holy Ghost and participate in works of the church!

I know many Mormons who don't care if we're called Christian.
Yes Jesus is the brother of Satan. We are all the brother of Satan. We are all the brother of Jesus. We are all God's children! Satan denied God's plan and wanted the glory for himself. Jesus accepted God's plan and let God have the glory.

If by "godess" you mean God's wife then...
Wouldn't it make sense if God wanted men to marry women and have children that he would set his example for us?

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Ooooh! I love the wise man/foolish man story! We have a song about it!

Anyway back on track: you said it yourself:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Here's the plan of salvation! (Yay! Woo-hoo!)

We were all in the Pre-existance together. We were spirit brothers and sisters.
"Now the Lord had shown unto me Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones and God saw these souls that they were good and he stood in the midst of them and he said: these I will make my rulers for he stood among those that were spirits and he saw that they were good and he said unto me: Abraham thou art one of them thou wast chosen before thou wast born"
Abraham 3:22-23
While in the pre-existance God presented the plan to us. Our goal was to be tested on earth with free will. God would give us a body too. Many of us (2/3 or anyone here (even people arguing against this side!) on the earth) accepted God's plan. Jesus presented himself to be sacrificed for our sins and would give the glory to God. Satan did not accept God's plan. He wanted us to have to be good without free will and he wanted the glory for himself. Satan convinced many people (1/3 of the hosts of heaven) that God was wrong. There was a great battle in hevean and eventually Satan and the 1/3 were cast out.

Then we came to earth. The goal on earth is to live a good life, prove we are worthy, and return to live with God (and Jesus) some day. We will (many already have) die eventually.

Once we are dead, our body remains on the earth (for now) and our spirit moves on. If we have been good (it dosn't matter what religion you are) then we will dwell in Paradise. If we have been bad (and I mean bad) then we will be sent to Spirit Prison. If people on the earth did not learn of the gospel then here is the place where they will learn of it and they will be given a chance to accept it. People who did not get a chance to marry will be given one. The second coming will occur and Jesus will return to the earth. Our spirit will be placed with our body again only this time our body will be perfect with no flaws or mistakes. Anyone who had mental or phsyical defects would be cured of them. This stage of the moving the spirit and body back together is called the Resurrection.

Now comes judgement day. God will (and does) know what we've done, ALL we've done. He will make a decision on where we will go after that. The truely horrible sinners (people who feel no guilt over multiple homicides and such) will be sent to Outer Darkness to dwell with Satan and the 1/3. Some will be sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom (Even though this is the last Kingdom (except for Outer Darkness) it has been said that if we were to see even the Terrestrial Kingdom we would want to die so we could be there). Some will be sent to the Telestial Kingdom. And some will be sent to the Celestial Kingdom of glory to dwell with God and Jesus forever.

The end. Hope you enjoy. If you are humble enough, pray about it!

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Well duh.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

And we do worship and follow his teachings.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 06, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Which it dosn't...

 
emeraldstone
Jan 06, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Believe what you will

 
emeraldstone
Jan 06, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

Like what?

 
emeraldstone
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

Joseph Smith did not say that without him there was no salvation. Without Jesus there would be no salvation.

I don't know what religion you are. But according to me, if you believe in Jesus and God (of course you'd probably think they're the same person) and believe you can be with them again some day, etc. etc. etc. etc., you're a Christian!

 
emeraldstone
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

We don't think Jesus is God because Jesus is not God. If Jesus was God, then what was going on in Heaven while he was on the earth?

Jesus does have the same characteristics as God does which leads us to...
We know the Bible says that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost are ONE. It does not say they are the same person. It means they are one in mind, one in purpose, one in action. They share the same purpose:
"To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"
Moses 1:39

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

They are sacred, but not much of a secret. The Library of Congress has them recorded word for word, as it was given to Congress in 1897 I believe. The date may be wrong. One of the longest recordings on record there.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

True it is very different from the concept of the Trinity, but there are a lot of reformation churches who also don't believe in the Trinity anymore. Are they Christian?

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

JS didn't say that. Keep in mind some read D&C (Doctrine and Covanents) as though it is JS speaking. However most of it is spoken in first person by Christ. From the first Section and on. The captions all say "revelation given to Joseph Smith". In the same way Moses wrote what God told him.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

I think what he means is that we only teach one God. We only worship one God. We may believe there are many Gods, but there is only one Heavenly Father, and one Jesus Christ, because they are ours.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

Labels don't dictate laws or practices. If you're "gay" does that mean you should be able to have sex with any other "gay" person. No. It just means your gay.

So if your "christian", does that mean you believe the same as every other "christian" does. No. It is just a label. I don't think labels take on any other additional attributes.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

We also don't let our own people in so easily. You don't get to go to the temple just because your mormon. I'm pretty sure emeraldstone isn't even qualified to speak of the temple as he is not of age. As I am, and attend regularly, I can say without casting pearls before swine (I don't think you're swine, but that is the scriptural term) the temple is still very much related to Jesus Christ, and involves a higher connection with Him.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

I can see exactly what you mean. The two are fundamentally different. But from our point of view, I guess, it is frustrating that there is no new term. Because we believe JS restored the nature of God and Christ, because they appeared to Him, and he saw them as two different beings, rather than a council held in 300 AD to determine His nature, that we don't think we need to make a new name for it. He has no other name than Jesus Christ. And to be a Christian, seeing that the word Christ means Messiah in Greek, that we shouldn't have to have a new name if we believe that essential truth that he is the Messiah.

And also because there have been so many misconceptions of mormonism, and most think that Christ is the furthest thing from our religion, it is also frustrating that he is the core.

So more than anything it is battling misconceptions. Does that make sense? We just don't think it's neccesary to build a new word if Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Russian Orthodox, Pentacostals, Church of Christ, and any other "Chrisitan" religion on the earth which all having extremely different views of the Bible (not to mention different versions), and Jesus are allowed to label themselves Christian and we are not. I'm sure they are ALL proud of their differences. Which are wide and many.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 08, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

Another miscommunication. We also believe children inherit the Kingdom of God. Something catholics don't believe (if you're child died before receiving a catholic baptism). What I'm saying is EmeraldStone is 17 or something. I'm just saying he's not qualified to speak for the temple, if he has never been there. We have churches and we have temples. Anyone can go to church, but only certain members can go to the temple. You have to be at least 18, a member for at least a year, and you must also be worthy (meaning no adultery, porn, drugs, etc). You can go at a younger age for baptisms, but that is it.

 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 10, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

I commend your good service. When I was 14 Al Gore hadn't even invented the internet yet. You kids are lucky.

 
goldilox
Jan 31, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
The Mormon religion teaches/studies from the King James version of the Bible. In fact, we rotate each great work of scripture and focus on it for an entire year. Example, last year we studied the entire New Testament. It would be pretty confusing -- don't you think -- to use both the Bible and the Book of Mormon on such a regular basis together if they taught contradictory things? One of the beautiful things about the religion is that we are taught to ask questions and then seek answers for ourselves through prayer.

We believe that Jesus created the world.

We also believe that Jesus is equal with God, the Father. In all the same ways that you demonstrated with the exception that in order for Jesus to be equal to the Father he has to actually, Be, the Father.

You are correct, we do NOT share the same belief in the Trinity as other Christian faiths do and never will. That belief was introduced to Christianity early on, just after the death of the 12 apostles when the Bible was retranslated to include modern Greek Philosophies of the time. You can do the work and research this history yourself if you want. I really don’t see why it has to be such a HUGE deterrent in gaining the acceptance of other Christians though? There are SO MANY other things we do agree on but instead we focus on the ways we are divided. We believe in being good and kind and forgiving and trustworthy. We believe in living a good life and raising good children. We teach them to be honest and faithful and lights unto the world. All the same things that your Church, hopefully, is teaching you.

By the way, Jesus is not the only son of the Father… He is the only” begotten” son of the Father. There is a difference. Begotten means by definition, that he was procreated. We do believe that Jesus Christ was the only person ever to walk the earth who was born of a immortal Father and a mortal mother, thus giving Him the power to die (Mary) and live again (The Father).

We do believe that Jesus is eternal. This is the most ridiculous claim to Mormonism you stated so far – We believe in the Plan of Salvation – we believe that we lived with God the Father and Heavenly Mother and Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, in spirit form BEFORE we came to this earth – all of us. We believe that we progressed as far as we could in heaven without bodies. A plan was presented to give us bodies and send us to earth to prove if we “would do all things which the Lord, our God, asked of us”. The environment would be one of constant choice between good and evil – or “opposition in all things”. Satan, or Lucifer, as Isaiah referred to him in the Old Testament, offered up another plan – One in which we would come to this earth but would be “forced” to be righteous; thus taking all the glory of our return back to the presence of the Father for himself and denying us our God given right to Chose for Ourselves, or agency. His plan was rejected and he was thrust from Heaven to Hell for the secret, wicked intents of his heart. He was forever denied the opportunity to come to this earth and gain a body and thus take the next step in his eternal progression. Jesus stood before us all and said He would carry out the plan of the Father. Father knew we would sin and having sinned even once we would be denied from His presence forever. Therefore, He prepared a way for a Savior to come to this earth and be crucified of the world for the sins of the world – yet He would be sinless, a God already in His majesty as the eldest son of our Father in Heaven. The plan called for a Savior and Jesus Christ was chosen.

The Mormon religion is such a beautiful religion. It has so much depth. It is so easily misunderstood. But it is certainly worth taking a day or so to read 500 pages of the Book of Mormon to see if it is true. What do you have to lose? www.LDS.org



 
helpme
Feb 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

You believe in a superioir being. It is you.

 
+ Add Argument

8
Not Christian


helpme
Jan 04, 2008
5 convinced
Rebuttal
In the dictionary definition of a christian, you are correct. But that Idea changes when one looks at the differences in the Mormon church (CJCLDS) and the mainstream Christian church. The Question arises. In What Jesus do we believe?

The Jesus of Christianity is different from the Jesus of Latter Day Saints. I'll point out some of the differences.

The Christian Jesus;

-Equal with God in every way, eternally existing, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.
-As part of the trinity, he is God.
-As God, he took part in the creation of the universe. Nothing that was made was made without him.
-He is God incarnate, born of a virgin and called the Only son of God.

The Mormon Jesus;

-He is the Son of the father (God), born as a result of the father impregnating Mary.
-He is not eternal because he was created by the father and had a beginning.
-He is not equal to God.
-He is not God, but the son of God.
-He is the spiritual brother of all, including Satan because the Father has many children.

These are just some of the differences, but the point is made. The Mormon and the Christian believe in the teachings of a different Jesus.

The Mormon religion was brought to us by of the teachings of Mr.Smith. He said that it was revealed to him that the mainstream christian church and its teaching was corrupt. One result was the re-defining of what,when,and who Jesus was. It was Joseph Smith who said that the LDS and the Christian church are different because he considered the Christian church apostate.

One of the reasons that the Mormon and Christian church are not the same is because the founder, Smith, said and taught that.


 
unlabled00
Jan 04, 2008
5 convinced
Rebuttal
Christian belief:

God is an omnicient being and deity that existed before the universe itself.

Mormon belief:

God was once a man who was raised to deity status, and men on this Earth may be elevated to be gods with hard work and faith.

All Christian 'sects' believe that there is only one God, Mormonism teaches that there can be more than one God.

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"


Christian belief:

The Bible is the only Holy Book.

Mormon belief:

Book of Mormon exists.

The articles of faith for the Mormon religion state that they believe in the Bible only when it is "properly translated". Which basically means as soon as what the Bible says conflicts with what the BoM says... the Bible is wrong.


Christian belief:

Jesus Christ of the Bible
- "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).


Mormon belief:

Jesus Christ of Mormonism
- "We say it was Jesus Christ who was married in the marriage of Cana of Galilee" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 80).
- "When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus ... He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is His father? He is the first of the human family" (Journal of Discourses, pages 50-51).


Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Lucifer, and apparently married many of the Mary's of the New Testament.

Christianity's Jesus Christ sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane, LDS's Jesus Christ sweat blood "as it were", and manage to avoid all of the Biblical teachings of Christ's sacrifice upon the cross and how his act was an atonement for sin.


I'm sorry but Mormonism ignores some fundamentals of the Christian faith... your primary prophet is Joseph Smith whereas Jesus is the Christian Messiah.

I close with two quotes "straight from the Holy Horses mouth"... as it were (God):
Matt. 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 14:10-12).



 
unlabled00
Jan 04, 2008
5 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

It isn't Christianity if you believe in a different Jesus :)

 
unlabled00
Jan 06, 2008
4 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: booyakasha Show

Rule #1 of Gaining Respect on the Internet:

Don't be a dick.



 
jonjax71
Jan 04, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
man oh man, this is a wonderful debate... reading about the tenents of xtianity and lds just reaffirms for me that wheter its lds, xtianity, witness, yahweh, born again, baptist, amish, catholics, lutheran, methodist, judaism, islam, hindus, et al
it is a barrel of kaka, lies, and ignorance

thank no superior being I don't believe in any of it

 
jonjax71
Jan 04, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

You can call your self anything you like, that's the beauty of freedom of any choice of any thing which I strongly belive in

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dast Show

Quote me where I stated that, please.

I stated that Christians follow the Bible and its teachings, no other books.

Theres a big difference, to take a while to try and figure it out on your own :)

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

I'm fully aware that the Journal of Discourses isn't an official doctrine. However that does not change the fact that those are quotes of by LDS Prophets, Presidents, and General Authorities and were transcribed by the LDS officials. To claim or inferr that the quotes I have given are not of importance to your faith must be quite silly.

The Jesus' we believe in cannot be the same man...

Christian Jesus:

Immaculately conceived
"Now the birth of Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit…for that which was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:18,20).

Jesus "went stag" his entire life.
"For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is head of the church...love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church...A man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is great, but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church" (Eph 5:23-32).

Satan (Lucifer) is a self-created being (bare with me, this does relate to the Jesus argument).
"You [Lucifer] were in Eden, the garden of God…on the day that you were created…you were the anointed cherub…you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you…your heart was lifted up…you corrupted your wisdom" (Ez. 28:13,15,17).

Jesus is a member of the Holy Trinity, and all three sides are one and the same God.
In Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).
"It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him [Jesus]" (Col. 1:19).
"He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God] glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1:3).
"But of the Son He [God] says, ‘Thy Throne O God is forever and ever’" (Heb. 1:8).

Our salvation is a direct result of Jesus' sacrifice and nothing else.
"For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3).
"I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21).

Mormon Jesus:

Not immaculately conceived
Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood].

Jesus married (at least once). Orson Pratt is quoted as saying: "the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion, was a polygamist...marrying many honorable wives himself…God the Father had a plurality of wives…the Son followed the example of his Father…both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time" (The Seer, p.172, 1853).
(I'm not saying anything about the polygamist aspect about it, I'm aware that your Church does not actively condone the practice)

Jesus is Lucifer's brother.
Milton R. Hunter (an LDS general authority): "The appointment of Jesus to be Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer…this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p.15, 1945).

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three seperate gods:
Bruce McConkie: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead…As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us…these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-7).
James Talmage: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40).

Jesus' sacrifice in the cross was, essentially, insufficient.
The BoM on salvation: "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).
"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).



Quoted from the apostle Paul, "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received... a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4)."



 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

"Yes. He's not a Man. We don't think he is a Man"
To this, I give you... this:

"What Kind of Being is God - The Prophet Joseph Smith said: "If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345)." (Gospel Principles, Chapter 1, page 9, 1992)

This is a quote from the Gospel Principles, which ten quotes the Teacing of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 345... going to that quote we see this:

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible. Say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form, like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345)


Interesting.


 
unlabled00
Jan 06, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

"for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345)

"What Joseph Smith meant was is that we were made in his image and we would see him as "man" or like us. "

I find that hard to believe.

 
unlabled00
Jan 06, 2008
3 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

I refer you to xant's argument

 
jonjax71
Jan 04, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
God is an omnicient being and deity that existed before the universe itself.

I have often pondered this cincept of ominpotent or omnicience, one who knows all eternally before it occurs.

That said, to me it means that the creator god is a sadist-masochist because knowing what would happen, how man and society would turn out, he/she still let it occur.


 
xanthippa
Jan 04, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
There are other religions that believe in the divinity of Jesus the Christ (after all, the word Christos means 'Messiah', it is NOT part of the name, only a description of the role, thus Jesus THE Christ is the more accurate description) YET who are NOT considered part of the 'Christian' religion.

The most prominent example is the 'Jehova's Witnesses'...they certainly DO believe in the divinity of Jesus, yet they ARE NOT considered Christians.

It would appear to me (after both reading the texts and numerous deep and long discussions with LDS practitioners and missionaries as well as Jehova's Witness lit. and practitioners) that the differences between the Jehova's Witnesses and 'Christianity' are significantly smaller than the differences between LDS (Mormons) beliefs and practices and those of 'Christianity'.

This is not, in any way, a 'judgement' of the beliefs themselves: for one, I do think the LDS attituedes towards Jesus and marriage are much more accurate (i.e. historically plausible) than those of mainstream Christianity....and I would like to point out that a number of the 'Marys' in the Bible actually referrs to one person....

Yet, the faiths are so significantly differentiated, they do cause different social structures to develop as the result of following them. That, to me, is sufficient to regard them as quite separate faiths.

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
With respect to my above argument, as the Mormon doctrines take some departures from the teachings of Jesus and thus are the "foolish man" (not to imply that Mormon's are foolish).

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

What Jesus means by this is that not all who worship him are Christians... only those who worship and follow his teachings.

 
unlabled00
Jan 07, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

"But according to me, if you believe in Jesus and God (of course you'd probably think they're the same person) and believe you can be with them again some day, etc. etc. etc. etc., you're a Christian!"

Yet you agree with Matthew 7:21-27 KJV at the same time? Its one or the other, my friend, one or the other.

 
unlabled00
Jan 07, 2008
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

My entire youth I was taught to believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were one and the same. They are three sides of the same eternal being.

"It does not say they are the same person." Of course not... God and the Holy Spirit were never of flesh.

Allow me to explain my belief with a quote I found that can summarize it better than I. (From ChristianAnswers.net :P)

"God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality."

 
helpme
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show


Mormons claim to be Christian yet deny the essentials of Christianity; namely, that there is one God, that forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, that there is a trinity, that Jesus is God, etc.

Mormonism teaches that there are many many gods but that Mormons should serve and worship only one of them, the one of this world. It teaches that forgiveness of sins is not by grace alone. It denies the Trinity doctrine which says there is one God in three persons and instead says that there are three separate gods. It does not proclaim that Jesus is God, but that Jesus is "a" god.... etc. Additionally, Mormons have secret temple rituals, even though the rituals have been done away with with the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem.

Now, Mormons deny these basic Christian doctrines, yet they want to be called Christian because they say they believe in the same Jesus of the Bible, among other things. But when they speak of Jesus, they mean that Jesus is the brother of Satan, and you and I. They teach that we have all been born from god and his goddess wife who both have physical bodies of flesh and bones.

None of this is in the Bible and none of this is believed by Christians. But that has not stopped them from wanting to be called Christian.

So, since the Mormons deny basic Christian doctrine and claim to be Christian, then I can deny basic Mormon doctrine and be a Mormon. For example, I deny the following Mormon doctrines.

-I deny that there are many many gods (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 163).
-I deny that the trinity is three separate gods (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith page 370).
-I deny that god is a man from another planet (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 3).
-I deny that there is a goddess mother (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, page 443).
-I deny that god is married to his goddess wife (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.).
-I deny that god and his goddess wife have bodies of flesh and bones (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22; Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
-I deny that we were all born in the pre-existence (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, page 218; Articles of Faith, page 174).
I deny that Satan is my spirit brother (Mormon Doctrine, page 163).
-I deny that I need a temple (Articles of Faith, page 138).
-I deny that I have the potential of becoming a god (Articles of Faith, page 424).
-I deny that the book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible (History of the Church, 4:461).
-I deny that good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, pages 81, 92).
-I deny that my own blood must atone for any of my sins ((Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 247; see also, Vol. 4, pp. 53-54, 219-220).

Therefore, since the Mormons deny basic Christian doctrines and call themselves Christian, is it okay for me to deny basic Mormon doctrines and call myself a Mormon?





 
helpme
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dast Show

YOU: So let's throw dictionaries out the window, is that what you're saying?

ME: No. I am saying that the dictionary can be confining at times. Religion is much more complex than two sentences in the dictionary.

Y: If Christ created all things, did he create the Father and the Holy Spirit?

M: Are you at odds with KING who said Christ did create all things? As for my answer? No Because God is not a created being. Christ,who is God always existed with God and as God in the trinity. Trinity; one God, not three seperate beings.

Y: If Christ existed as one God, why did he need a mother? Which father gave him a body, too? Or is he a special child--only a mother, not a father?

M: Christ didn't need anything as God, certainly not a mother. But God's plan for the world was to send Himself, God incarnate, as the man Jesus. He chose to do this through Mary. Mary was a virgin and God placed Jesus in her womb. She still was a virgin until her and Joseph had other children. Yes I am saying that Jesus had no earthly father by blood.

Y: Who was Jesus referring to when he said His "father" all those times? Why did Jesus pray to know and do the Father's will, if they were the exact same and completely all-knowing and all-powerful?

M: He was refering to God the Father. Jesus came to earth and has humbled himself to the point of submission to the Father. So on earth, he was fully man and acted as a man.
The difference was he was also fully God. That is why he had no sin and was perfect. He had to be in order to provide the sacrifice that God requires for forgivness. The perfect sacrifice for imperfect and sinfull man.

Y: Why were there prophets or apostles, but now there are none, yet everyone can still be saved?

M: This Confuses me. The LDS has Prophets and apostles today. But In general, there is still salvation because Jesus ALONE provides salvation, not prophets or apostles.

Y: So, which two Christian(TM) churches--out of all the thousands-- believe in *exactly* the same Jesus?
Which *ONE* Christian church worships the true God?
Or do you say it's possible to believe differently and all believe the same?? All the Christian churches believe differently.
Is this logical?--"We all believe differently, but we're all ok; you believe differently, but that's not ok." What?? So do Baptists believe that Protestants can be saved? Does Methodists believe Catholicism and Calvinists are just as likely to be saved? (If anyone can answer this question, I'll debate that;

M: The answer is simple. MANY Christian denominations believe in the exact same Jesus. There are some denonminations who are way off base. But, for the most part any differences we have are trivial. In fact many denominations beleive exactly in the same doctrine and differ in name only.
I would be happy to debate this with you, private or open.


Y: but this topic of "Are Mormons Christians?" is pretty lame for Christians to be debating--if they were to step back and take a breath first.)

M: If it is a lame debate, you should not rebutt. Whoever posted the debate probably did because the subject is in our face daily on the news.

Y: when it comes to Christians, it's either Catholics (the original) or the LDS (restored). Why? Most all the others broke off from the Catholics. (Unless you don't believe that God's authority is needed for His church, of course...)

M: ALL religions who "call" themselves Christian and are not Catholic, broke away from the catholics. I would suggest that All would say that they believe in God's authority over the church.

Y: Nevertheless, anyone--whether they claim membership in a church or not--who believes in Jesus as his one Savior and purports to follow Jesus, I'll give the definition of "Christian" to.

M: You might say that, but LDS doctrine would say differently. Your church's doctrine, like mine, is exclusionary in the sense that we believe that our beliefs are the only truth.



 
asimpleman
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

For the sake of the debate, I'll grant you your definitions (besides others have debated their value).

According to your definitions, Mormonism fails to meet the criteria for Christianity.

(Wikitony) Mormonism is not monotheistic (since people may become gods).

All of the cited definitions include adherence to the teachings of Jesus. Again, Mormonism fails here. Mormonism departs from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus teaches that there is no marriage for the glorified redeemed (Mormonism teaches celestial marriages). Jesus teaches that all judgment has been given to Him (Mormonism teaches that Father, Son, and Joseph Smith are judges). The list goes on.

Since Mormonism doesn't adhere to the teachings of Christ, it fails to meet the criteria which would make it "Christian".

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

Except for when the BoM conflicts with the teachings of the Bible....

 
xanthippa
Jan 05, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

Well, actually, you follow what the 'latter day saints' SAY the teachings of Christ OUGHT to be, not what the documented teachings of Christ actually are.

This is not to say that the documented teachings are in any way true and accurate reflections of what Jesus taught....just that 'Christians' do follow them, while LDS church members follow only what the re-written versions of these teachings are.

Again, I make no value judgement about which may or may not be more correct. Simply making reference to the definitions, as cited in this debate, and pointing out the difference.

 
emeraldstone
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: booyakasha Show

What in the heck are you talking about! You said something similar on the last debate! Care to give a reason or are you just an idiot with a bias?

 
xanthippa
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

I think a lot of other people have posted a number of specific examples....

I might phrase these somewhat differently, but that is likely due to my POV an no more valid than their statements. However, the CRUX of the matter as it appears to me (and I do not wish to offend anyone - this is NOT a value judgemement, merely an observation of a difference between two world-views neither one of which I subscribe to personally) that the 'mainstream Christianity' and 'Mormonism' is that these two 'groups' have a VERY different idea of what constitutes 'DIVINITY'.

This is MY opinion only...and from my personal observations only - so, please, do not take it as 'fact' or accepted theory.

MOST of the differences (both raised here and others) could most easily be explained by the two groups having a significantly different concept of what constitutes the 'divine'. Yet, since this also varies somewhat between worshippers within one faith, it is difficult to quantize.....Yet, do you understand what I am asserting?

Regardless of the 'philosophical' differences, what seems more pertinent to me is that there is a significant difference in societal organizations which results from the two interpretations of faith. Having lived in Utah, you may be more qualified than most to comment on these differences....but it would be difficult to deny that they do, indeed, exist.

 
helpme
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

That Is my point exactly. The Mormon does not think Jesus is God Like your peer said in this debate.

If Jesus is God, he would have the exact same characteristics as God does.

The Christian (and the BIBLE) says Jesus IS God.

The Mormon thinks Jesus is A god and is the son of the
Father.

That is different enough in itself to say that the Mormon is not Christian and vise-versa.

 
helpme
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

I reject 90% of this. But I trust in Christ's teaching and my need for the salvation only he can provide.

Joseph Smith said without him(JS) there is no salvation. I reject that statement.

I say there is a completely different account of this plan of salvation.

Do you think I am a christian equal to your standing? Am I a Christian at all?

I

 
xanthippa
Jan 06, 2008
1 convinced
Rebuttal
I think that perhaps the most powerful argument I have seen during this debate came from 'helpme':

"Would you feel free and comfortable to leave your temple for good and worship at my church? "

IFF (if and only if) that BOTH sides were equally comfortable to worship in each other's temples, without restrictions or reservations, THENN (then and only then) could the two faiths be considered under a common label.....whichever label it may be.


 
Brett Stubbs
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

BUT you don't KNOW what we believe is the point. Everything you said before was completely false. So maybe you should take a second look. And don't get the "facts" from some baptist ministers website. That's like asking Microsoft how good an Apple computer is. Get it from the source.

 
unlabled00
Jan 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

Christianity as defined by JESUS:

"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:21-27 KJV)


 
helpme
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

That's been my point all this time. We Fundamentally disagree on the whos, whats,whys,and hows (pardon poor grammar) of God, Jesus, the spirit, the Trinity, the plan of salvation, heaven, hell, ect.
Smith proclaimed the christian Church apostate and disassociated his new revelation with the Christian church. Your religion is LDS/Mormon, complete with its doctrine.
The Christian church was called christian, then and now, complete with its doctrine. The two are fundamentally different.

Christian is not Mormon and Mormon is not Christian. Why can't you be proud of that fact.

 
helpme
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show


"Joseph Smith did not say that without him there was no salvation. Without Jesus there would be no salvation."

I Concede this point. I do not want to invent things. I said that from a poor memory. Here is what I found. LDS leader said:


Joseph Fielding Smith said: [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

(I was almost correct, Joseph FIELDING Smith said this)

 
helpme
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

YOU: We do not teach there are multiple gods! Jesus is the son of God as are we all.

ME: You may or may not teach it but, Joseph Smith DID.(THE JS. this time i got it right)


"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).


 
helpme
Jan 07, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: emeraldstone Show

SECRET TEMPLE RITUALS!?!?!?!? What are you talking about? The temple is a holy place, a place of God, a place to feel the Holy Ghost and participate in works of the church!


You would say they are Sacred. If they are not secret, then would you please tell me, in detail, what they are and involve?

 
helpme
Jan 08, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

Good enough.

I will say that I do know more than you may think about the LDS. My parents took us to temple for a while when I was a younger man, and I love to study other religions.

Misconceptions are on both sides. There are some "Christian" churches that do vary greatly. But, for the most part, the different denominations are different in name only, holding the same core doctrines.

 
helpme
Jan 08, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

Y: "I'm pretty sure emeraldstone isn't even qualified to speak of the temple as he is not of age. As I am, and attend regularly, I can say without casting pearls before swine (I don't think you're swine, but that is the scriptural term) the temple is still very much related to Jesus Christ, and involves a higher connection with Him."

M:Jesus said, (my paraphrase) Allow the little children to come to me for the Kingdom of God is for such as these.

I think Jesus accepts the simple readily.

 
xanthippa
Jan 08, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

You said: " I don't think labels take on any other additional attributes."

What do you mean by 'additional'?

I probably missed something earlier, have been REALLY busy, so, please forgive me if I'm going over 'done' stuff...

A 'label' is a word that is used to symbolize a collection of 'sufficiently similar' 'stuff'. ( the technical term 'stuff' can mean objects, concepts, ideas, people.... you know, 'stuff')

I am not aware of having used the term in any other way than as strictly descriptive of 'similarities' - and I was making a judgement (no factual support, just presenting my opinion) that the religious views expressed during worship in a 'mainstream Christian' temple are SUFFICIENTLY different from those expressed in a 'LDS' temple to make most followers of one somewhat uncomfortable worshipping in the temple of the other.

Yes, of course there is 'variability' within each denomination, and there are personal variations even among the worshippers in one temple. That is natural.

My comment was meant to address the AMOUNT of difference in CORE ARTICLES of faith AS WELL AS in HOW these are conceptualized.....

Perhaps a REALLY good example of what I mean can be found in this very debate, in a question Emeraldstone posed to Unlabled00:

"If Jesus was God, then what was going on in Heaven while he was on the earth? "

I posed this question to a Catholic friend: the answer was unsatisfyingly simple to my mind, but it was clear that SHE thought it exhaustive AND explanatory. She said: "Everywhere, just like always! After all, he IS omnipresent!"

This is just a TINY glimpse of the difference in HOW the nature of BELIEF is different between the two.... Not better, not worse, not even touching the right/wrong thing!

Just DIFFERENT....


 
emeraldstone
Jan 08, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

I can do B for the D. : )

 
emeraldstone
Jan 10, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

1. I'm 14
2. I do go for baptisms
Just clearing some things up! : )

 


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