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Christianity Helps our Country
Religion

nolanblew
Dec 04, 2007
9 votes
11 debaters
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Christianity has started our country. The more we take Christianity out of our country, the more our


unlabled00
Dec 04, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: juggernaut Show

The Crusades was hardly what I would call "stabilizing all of the unruly people in ancient times". More like "Christians raped and pillaged in the name of God so they could reclaim their Holy land. "

 
Brett Stubbs
Dec 04, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

Two of your sources were not founding fathers.

The other two are quotes which seem to back up your argument, however they are taken out of context.

The Founding Fathers were Christian to the core. There is no doubt about that. But they were also statesmen and scholars. One of the most obvious observations of their time was that the Catholic church and Church of England disputes, autonomy, and opression when mixed with politics was a deadly combination, this is way TJ talked of a wall of separation of church and state, which prose is not found in the constitution, yet is often quoted as though it is.

Because someone is against church and state mixing, does not mean that they were not christian. Did they believe Christ was their Savior? Most definitely, this would qualify them as a christian. Quotes out of context won't change that.

 
jonjax71
Dec 05, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
xtianity was used to justify slavery-the curse of Ham. xtianity has been the biggest detriment to persons of African descent on the mother continent and here in the USA,, F**k the slave traders and the missionaries forcing xtianity down our throats

 
xanthippa
Dec 04, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: juggernaut Show

Pardon me, but, in the ancient times....did Christianity (or rather its Judaic roots) not lead to wars and genocide, rather than 'stabilizing all of the unruly people'? Just browse through the old testament!

The major stablilizing forces were the big empires....Egypt, Babylon, Etruscans, way later Rome....and Christianity strove to undermine them!

It only became a 'unifying' force under the Roman Emperor Constantine's sword - but that was FAR from the Christianity most people today mean....Constantine had been convinced by the early church fathers (through one of his 'wives', who was a Christian slave-girl - and some suggest a present to Constantine BY the early church fathers...) that Jesus was a failed Christ (Christ means saviour/messiah) and that Constantine should select Christianity as HIS form of the pagan Sol Invictus (sun-worship - every Roman emperor, by this time, had to 'select' one form of the solar deity as incarnated in HIM) - and to take up where Jesus left off......hence, the re-writing of all the Jesus accounts at Constantine's council of Nicea in 325 CE to be in accord with the Sol Invictus religion, his birtday moved to the winter solstice (properly called Candlemass, NOT Christmass), his death/passover moved to coincide with Luprenalia (celebrations of Eostera - hence the name) - well, you name the symbol, it has been transplanted there....and which many historians consider to be the end of the ancient times and the beginning of the dark times.....when hoardes of black-cloaked Christian monks roamed Europe and destroyed any books, learning or cultural symbols they could find, precipitating the 'dark' times!

Of course, these terrorist black-cloaked monks only increased the sectarian nature of Christianity, so that in a few hundred years, Arianism - not Catholicism - was the dominant form of Christianity in Europe.....Arianism became popularized in that silly book....DaVinci code....and the 'Madonnas' of southern Europe from pre-1200 or so depict NOT Mary with baby Jesus, but Mary-Magdalene, with Jesus' son.

So, what exactly was that 'unifying' which Christianity did?

 
vancam
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Helps it do what exactly?

What benefit has any religion, government and mass media ever had other than to tax peeople of their property and brainwash them with short sighted rhetoric.

1. flat world

2. 911

3. Pop Idol

In the future perhaps they will do us all a favour and remove our free will along with the umbilical cord!

 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: Brett Stubbs Show

1. I never said ALL the quotes were from founding fathers....I said they came from 'founding fathers AND early presidents of the USA'

2. My quotes are NOT out of context....they are a valid representation of early US poliltician's thoughts - they capture the zeitgest of those days.

Please, cite some evidence to support your assertions.

But, do consider that Thomas Payne was a personal friend of many founding fathers - and they were so grateful for his help during the revolution AND the drafting of the constitution, they gave him a nice little estate as a thank you! Thomas Payne and his ideas were a MAJOR influence on the early US policymakers - as well as on the constitution. That is a matter of historical record. And he was not exactly a Christian - with a large record of anti-bible, anti-salvation, at best deist statements.

Christianity was NOT what the USA was founded on - no matter how much you try to revise history. Sorry, the facts are just too well known to be re-written.

You say the founding fathers were Christian to the core....OK, back it up with evidence! And not just the 'going to church for appearances' sake' - show some of their ideas and how they are actually rooted in Christianity. Because the are not....these men were deists, atheists and anti-theists. If you read their works, this fact 'jumps out' at you!


 
helpme
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

Untrue. It is correct to say that the perversion of christianity is a cornerstone of racist groups ;)

 
sandraboltryk
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Nothing is sacred anymore. Everyone is so hard and jaded and dont believe in anything anymore. So what if someone says " one nation under God?" it is sending a positive message of unity and people are against this? why? In God We trust is even on our currency! clearly we were founded with christinaity in mind. Why change something that has worked for so long?

 
helpme
Dec 08, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

The problem with this aged argument is this. Say I raped a child and told the judge that my christian God told me to do it.
That would not be the truth because it goes against the concept that the bible teaches about protecting children. It would be an excuse that perverts the teaching of scripture.

So it goes with the crusades. The crusades were wrong. As was slavery in the US and so on. It doesn't mean that religion
is responsible. In the end, it is still the fault of the men who did these these things.

 
unlabled00
Dec 09, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

If their religion had never stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and that Jerusalem was not hallowed ground would the Crusaders have ever invaded the Middle East?

It was the pursuit of their Holy Ground that brought them to the scene of their crimes.

 
unlabled00
Dec 09, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

You can say that but not know if its true or not, I believe it unlikely that you're the only one with the exact understanding of the Bible to decree who's wrong and who's right in this issue.

 
juggernaut
Dec 04, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Christianity makes the separation of church and law harder to execute.

But we also have to thank religion for stabilizing all of the unruly people in ancient times. Without stability, there would be no America, no electricity, no convinceme.

 
helpme
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

"I presume you are referring to the USA: if so, then its founding fathers were deists at best, atheists for the most part, and anti-theists for the rest. "

I hate to always disagree with you, because i like you.

I have tons of evidence via quotes of our founders. And things like; a great number of our founders and early fathers of this country were members of the clergy.

Thomas jefferson established the public school system with two text books mandatory. One being the Bible. He was also the founder of at least one Bible society.


The evidence overwhwelmingly points to a christian foundation.

Did you also know that the supreme court once ruled that (We are a religious people...this is a Christain nation)

In ()'s because I quoted this to the best of my memory.

Ben Franklin was probably a deist/agnostic who ironically called for daily prayer to start each session of the cont. congress.

Thom Jefferson was a Christian who later in life doubted the teaching of the trinity. Some say with good argument that he may have renounced his christianity in the end. others disagree.

the rest were certainly believers in some capacity. most of them deeply involved in the local churches.


 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

Every Christian sects claims that they are the right ones, while all the others are a 'perversion' of the faith.....so who decides?

 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

Do you think that 'they' will FORCE us to give up free will because it is GOOD FOR US?

 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: sandraboltryk Show

Have you read my original post?

"In God We Trust" was not added to your currency until the second half of last century - when the right wing of the Republican party got in bed with the Evangelical Christian groups.

Again, this is a historical fact: you'd have to do a heck of a lot of book burning to erase them and re-write the history!

 
xanthippa
Dec 06, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
All forms of monotheism are necessarily elitist.

All forms of fundamentalism are necessarily elitist, arrogant and destructive to the society they are permitted to exist in.

In order to preserve 'our way of life', we must be constantly vigilant against one form or fundamentalism or another becoming dominant and overrunning its host society - as it will always trample on the rights of all the individuals within such a society!

 
helpme
Dec 07, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

"So, making the Bible mandatory reading is NOT evidence that somebody wanted to Christianize the nation: to the contrary."

I am not suggesting that is was Jefferson's Idea. I was only Rebutting the idea that he was a deist or an atheist with a small piece of evidence (admitingly not the only,or strongest).

An atheist would not see the Bible as a valuable textbook (being the only one that is). The Deist does not acknowledge God's concern with his creation, so he would not consider the Bible in schools.

"Participation in Churches....was a social, not a religious function. Remember, these men were deists - with all the elitist attitudes this entails. (Deist believed that 'God' was a principle at best, but while it is OK for the 'educated higher classes' to know this, it would be disastrous if this 'got out', because poor and uneducated 'regular' people need the Christian discipline to keep them working hard and not sticking their noses into politics.)"

I assume you are talking about the 1700's here. If not, forgive this next thought.

The founders did much more than participate. Being clergy is deeper than participating. The majority of these men were immersed in some capacity with christianity.

The common man had easy access to scripture. G. Washington issued the N. Testament/Psalms and Proverbs to his soldiers.


 
helpme
Dec 07, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

"Pardon me, but, in the ancient times....did Christianity (or rather its Judaic roots) not lead to wars and genocide, rather than 'stabilizing all of the unruly people'? Just browse through the old testament!

The major stablilizing forces were the big empires....Egypt, Babylon, Etruscans, way later Rome....and Christianity strove to undermine them! "

While I am one of the "elitists who are permitted to exist.." and do not condone other religions, I have to point out that these empires that you credit with stabilization were rife with religion and gods of many types. The Roman's worshipped caesar as a god.

To say that these empires stabilized the world would depend on what glasses you are looking through. The slaves and conquered people would say that they were De-stabilized.

So, it is safe to say that religion is credited with both sides of the stability argument.


 
helpme
Dec 07, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

Scripture decides.

 
helpme
Dec 07, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: ryanrose Show

"It occurs to me that many people hold dear their Christianity, and that's fine. Their prayers don't hurt me. The problem comes when religion and state are not separated. If a law were instated preventing the marriage of two people of the same gender (or more than two people, for that matter), it would be essentially forcing a part of religion onto all other people through the law, which, as we all know from sixth grade history class, was the motivation to begin the States as we know them today- a place of religious freedom.

The motivation to begin the states was not religion, it was the desire to separate from the rule of England and its king.

The fact that America was founded on christian principal(sp?)does not mean that christianity was forced on anyone. The genius of our founders was that they allowed for the freedom of people to practice whatever religion they chose without compromising thier own. That is true tolerance.

Passing a law always forces a view on the people who are oppossed to the law. It doesn't make a difference if the law was religiously motivated or not. I do not agree with the social security laws, but I am forced to pay into the fund. I work with a fellow who is a registered sex offender. He constantly rants about those laws and how unfair they are to him. Religiously motivated laws are no different than their counterparts.


It is not my opinion that Christianity itself hurts the country, however, the people who adhere to it and intend to force it on others through the law are detrimental to the progression of the country toward a world in which all people are treated fairly through the rules of logic."

But you are not oppossed to non-religious/anti-religious motivated laws that are forced on the christian? Are we not entitled to the same standards that you hold on us? Tolerance and consideration.


 
xanthippa
Dec 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

I have yet to see 'scripture' speak out and explain which interpretations of it are correct and why.....it is always PEOPLE who are making these claims - and these people always have an agenda.

Come on, if we can have laws written now, here, with our circumstances and conditions in mind - and almost immediatelly there are lawyers who interpret these laws to mean almost oppostite things, how can we expect an ancient document which exists in hundreds of variations (none exactly alike) to be interpreted only the 'correct' way? We can't even know which of the versions we have now is the 'right' one - or if the 'right' one has indeed survived...

A Christian once tried to help me with the 'correct text' question, and I must say that I found that explanation appealing. She said that we must interpret the scripture in the 'spirit' of kindness and forgiveness of Jesus' message: if you truly and honestly believe that you are following the 'right' scripture, and follow it faithfully, then Jesus will forgive you sins you commited unknowingly....they'll count as sins against those who corrupted the scripture....

It made sense, in that Jesus would be fair like that.....but it is also dangerous.

 
helpme
Dec 18, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

The fair way to study scripture is hemanuetics. I will not bore you by explaining what this is. if you are interested check it out. There is a saying in the christian circles. "Scripture has one interpretation but many applications." There is a difference.

 
helpme
Dec 18, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

SORRY I MEAN hermaneutics.

 
+ Add Argument

6
The USA was founded specifically as an atheist country!


xanthippa
Dec 04, 2007
2 convinced
Rebuttal
I presume you are referring to the USA: if so, then its founding fathers were deists at best, atheists for the most part, and anti-theists for the rest.

The one thing they specifically said was that THIS (the USA) was NOT to be a Christian country, nor a country dominated by any other religion....that is why they insisted on the separation of Church and state.

Here are a few quotes from the founding fathers and some of the early US presidents:

"My earlier views on the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation have become clearer and stronger with advancing years." - Abraham Lincoln

"The clergy believe that any power confided in me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. They believe rightly!"
- Thomas Jefferson

"I have scarcely met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and distorted by religion." - James Buchannan

"God is an essence we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world." - John Adams

George Washington avoided the scarament...when the clergyman chastised him for it, saying he is setting a bad example, Washington agreed with him - and never went to church again....

Remember, 'In God we Trust' was added to the US currency only in the second half of the 20th century....

No, the USA was founded as a specifically NON-Christian country....sorry so few textbooks bother to point it out!

 
unlabled00
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Lets not forget that Christianity is a corner stone of racist groups :)

 
vancam
Dec 05, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: xanthippa Show

I think we lose our ability to act as individuals to "mob mentality" daily. I can cite many descisions made in the last few years that any individual with common sense would have avoided had it not been for a wave of mob opinion carrying them along.

 
ryanrose
Dec 06, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
It occurs to me that many people hold dear their Christianity, and that's fine. Their prayers don't hurt me. The problem comes when religion and state are not separated. If a law were instated preventing the marriage of two people of the same gender (or more than two people, for that matter), it would be essentially forcing a part of religion onto all other people through the law, which, as we all know from sixth grade history class, was the motivation to begin the States as we know them today- a place of religious freedom.

It is not my opinion that Christianity itself hurts the country, however, the people who adhere to it and intend to force it on others through the law are detrimental to the progression of the country toward a world in which all people are treated fairly through the rules of logic.

 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: helpme Show

I also like you, and so I do not disagree with everything you say, but on this topic....

Reading the Bible - in my opinion - is the fastest recipy for NOT becoming a Christian. The first time I read it, I REALLY REALLY wanted to believe it. But, well, after reading it, I could not, in good conscience, be a Christian. It's all in the book.

So, making the Bible mandatory reading is NOT evidence that somebody wanted to Christianize the nation: to the contrary.

If you look at the Catholic Church, they ABSOLUTELY did NOT want people to read the Bible...and they understood why. For hundreds of years - until the printing press made them give up the battle - under the Catholic Church laws, any layman caught with a copy of the Bible was put to death!

Over and over, for hundreds of years, those who wanted to promote Christianity have been forbidding the reading of the Bible EXCEPT under the direct control of whatever clergy happened to be in power at the time.....

Participation in Churches....was a social, not a religious function. Remember, these men were deists - with all the elitist attitudes this entails. (Deist believed that 'God' was a principle at best, but while it is OK for the 'educated higher classes' to know this, it would be disastrous if this 'got out', because poor and uneducated 'regular' people need the Christian discipline to keep them working hard and not sticking their noses into politics.)

When you look at their actions and speeches keeping this in mind, they will make much more sense!

 
xanthippa
Dec 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

I could never presume to share your perspective.....thanks for opening my eyes to something I had no real concept of.

I will never again forget what you have taught me!

 
postfloyd
Apr 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
"Does Christianity help our country(The USA)?"

Does -- Does serves a deliberative function. In essence, it means that we are
deliberating whether the following statement is true or not. "True" meaning can the
statement be observed in the affirmative.

Christianity -- There are many sects of christianity, but I shall take this to mean a
community of people who 1)believe the bible is god's word, 2)believe in the god of
the bible 3) and believe that he has a will which should be obeyed. This is not
necessarily the best definition of Christianity, but I think it serves the purpose of
this debate. Contact me with suggestions if you think otherwise.

Benefit -- The word benefit is a comparison between quantities of values. If a
certain action or POV benefits a country, then the country without the action/POV
will have less of the *value* than the country WITH the action/POV. There are,
however, many values that can be the yardstick for whether there is benefit. For
example, the value that might be increased by christianity could be "faith", or it
could be something like "efficiency", or maybe, "equality".

The values I will use to be the yardstick for benefit shall be the values the
declaration of independence explicitly stated were a part of this country: namely,
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Country -- This obviously means the USA.

So, we are deliberating whether it can be observed that there is more Life, liberty
and happiness with christianity than without christianity being a major part of the
United States.

Because of the many warring factions and divisiveness of the religious landscape in
america, all between Christian Sects, I can not say for sure that there is more life
in america with christiantiy than without. For example, look at northern ireland for
an exaggerated example of divisiveness in christiantiy. Many people die there. Also,
many christians subscribe to the "Pat Robertson" viewpoint that they should just let
a "wave of intolerance" wash over them. In a speech written by one of those
televangelicals, the speaker reportedly wished for a "Holy Spirit Machine Gun" with
which to do away with all athiests and non-believers. Apparently, he wished to have a
machine-gun that ran on the holy spirit. I am not sure what the engineering would
have looked like.

Without christianity, however, it seems that as that major divisiveness dissappears,
less angry mobs would be killing others. This is not for sure, as there are no
instances of america becoming fully athiest. However, there is evidence that america
would be more respectfull of life. After all, if the top brightest, best, most
altruistic men and women of the United states are counted as athiest(in actuallity,
the top 5% of american civilization is 100% athiest), the organization of america
would improve drastically with an athiestic worldview. Many athiest writers are
reknowned for their altruistic and human-loving stance, such as Bertrand Russel.

Either way, religously motivated murder of people increases as divisive christian
sects become more involved in the country.

Next is liberty.

Liberty may be defined as the ability to choose your livelihood, to mark your own
path and decide for yourself what you want to do with your life. Christianity
believes that there is a God's will that should be obeyed, however. It is not easy to
see how enforcing God's will on an entire society would make that society more free
to follow their own path. The answer is a tautology: Christianity dramatically
reduces liberty and freedom of choice. Remember, even if god's will is correct, we
are discussing the will of the NATION, and how beneficial christianity is to the
NATION. Since this nation was founded on the principle of liberty(among others),
restricting liberty can not be good for the NATION.

Next is the pursuit of happiness. On this account, we can not say that happiness is
greater with christianity than without. Suicide rates between christians and athiests
are exactly the same. No difference. The happiness of the people would be exactly the
same with, or WITHOUT, christianity.

So, in response to the question of whether it can be observed that Life, liberty, and
happiness is increassed in america with christianity, and thus, making christianity
beneficial, we are forced to answer with a resounding negative.


 
postfloyd
Apr 05, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jonjax71 Show

I believe the abolitionist movement attempting to end slavery was christian and biblically based?

Of course, there were missionaries, and other christians trying to justify slavery WITH the bible.

Hmm... there seems to be a contradiction within the bible here...

 
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I am not, nor do I agree with atheism, but that is another debate. I must say that, the founding fathers had no interest in this country being Christian. Like it or not, Christianity serevely limits freedom and thought, just what our founding fathers did not want.

 


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