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Equal pay / men vs. women
Society


Women in big US cities are paid more than men
According to an analysis of recent census data women in many major metropolitan areas now earm more than males in the same age categories....
jjc
Aug 17, 2007
8 votes
6 debaters
1


+ Add Argument

1
Women have achieved equality in the white collar world


jjc
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I've always felt that the reason women weren't considered as treated "equally" in the eyes of the academics and journalists that I read, was that they were including the women who opt out of their careers to raise familes then return. I felt like this would change over time as more and more women opt to remain in the workplace while having families or to put off having familes. When I heard about the report referenced in the above posting, it did not surprise me. Most of the women I know are just as capable as most of the men, plus they seem to be more organized than most of the men. I realize these are generalizations, but they are just my observations. I also think that women do not tend to be as assertive as men and that has accounted for part of the "pay gap". If a man has a beef over pay, he will often just quit and get another job. I know several women who have felt that they were undercompensated and remained in their jobs for "security" reasons.

 
jjc
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

Yeah, I meant to frame it as the US only. I even considered putting US in the title but didn't. CRAP!

 
jjc
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

I'm sure there are still inequalities in the rural areas and smaller cities. A friend from Louisiana who had lived in Atlanta for several years recently moved back to her husbands home town in central Louisiana. She graduated from LSU then went to Georgia State University for her MBA. She was a VP with the bank she worked with for 10 years. When she moved to Louisiana the local bank offered her the head teller's position. She said that they made it clear to her that was the highest position available to a woman at their bank. So I'm not saying there is equality, what I am saying is that in the competitive markets, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Atlanta, etc... women are treated with the real worth that they have in the market. I think minorities are as well (with equal qualification).

 
donmega
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Men do not get pregnant - require gynecological care. take five years off to raise the kids...

 
gogopoet
Aug 18, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thethinker Show

RE: "Why is equality such an important thing?"

I'm glad you think equality is unimportant. Does this mean you are willing to take a big pay cut just because you are male?

RE: "They have differences, and trying to achieve "equality" is unfair and restrictive, not to mention counterintuitive and counterproductive."


Actually women are more than equal for a lot of the jobs which women get paid less to do than men. The men get paid more because they are men, not because they perform better.

If a guy can prove he is a better whatever than his female coworkers sure pay him more. By the same token though a woman who proves herself better at a job than her male counterparts should also get paid more than them. That doesn't happen though. EVen when she proves that she's better than the guys they still get paid more and THAT'S the problem.

 
gogopoet
Aug 18, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thethinker Show

RE: "If they could prove that, sure that would be unjust because it's not merit based"

Which is what the debate is about.

RE: "What I have problem with are the extreme feminists who demand equality yet never advocate men's shelter (yes men are beaten, but they have nowhere to go."

Are there no men to advocate that? Must we do EVERYTHING for you guys?

RE: "Feminists say it's ok and say that it was the man's fault)."

I do believe you are overgeneralizing. Since I'm a feminist and never said that, I'm certain you are stereotyping us.

RE: "So basically the feminist view of equality is absolutely unachievable unless we have a role reversal of men and women, which obviously screws people up unless everyone was like Shirley Schmidt."

More stereotyping. That doesn't make for very good arguements.

RE: "Also, if I was hosting a show with same contnet as Oprah, even if I followed to the second, I would get the same pay."

Care to decipher that?

 
gogopoet
Aug 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: thethinker Show

RE: "1. Look at the news story. BIG success for the feminists demanding equality, now men are being paid less. "

Not a big success. Even with the reported incomes being significantly higher in some major cities, women still earn less on average than men. You're trying to make the exceptions sound like the rule.

RE: "2. Because extreme feminists slash everything and everyone that advocates for men and call it oppression, stereotyping, or conforming to social expecteations. "

Aren't they just using your logic against you?

RE: "3. Well then leave the men alone. Don't call them oppressors and things. Don't threaten to sue if they are not elected."

If they agreed to that do you think men would stop oppressing women?

RE: "Feminists stereotyping men is also quite annoying."

All stereotyping is annoying.

RE: "Also I get a feeling that extreme feminists like to use stereotyping charges a lot. "

Probably true, but how many feminists are extreme?

RE: "Why is it that they can't recognize the fundamental differences? "

You'll have to ask them. I've been preaching biological differences for years. Our society isn't ready to admit that we are just animals and not magically empowered to disobey our biological limits and directives.

RE: "They read Dilbert and think that Tina is stereotyping women, so the author made Antina, but got MORE stereotyping charges."

Isn't that an assumption on your part?

RE: "Men and women have different behaviors from birth. That surely isn't a result of social stereotyping."

The problem isn't that there are differences but that there is an assumption that men are more valuable workers regardless of what those differences entail.

RE: "The point is, there are places where women have the advantage."

Again, those are the exception not the rule.

RE: "So my point is that maybe it's better to recognize and work with the difference rather than ignoring them and demanding "equality"."

And I would argue similarly that actual job performance be considered rather than ignoring that on the assumption that women can't perform equally.

 
+ Add Argument

7
Women are still treated unfairly in the business world


vancam
Aug 17, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
It's your use of the word 'world' that is the problem. What has been ahcieved in small specific areas of major cities certainly doesn't reflect the vast majority elsewhere.

 
vancam
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jjc Show

I'm not even sure it is even applicaple to the as a whole actually US. I'm fairly sure I recall recently listening to a radio bulletin saying that there was still inequalities in male / female pay in the US. I would usually google and do the research but I'm mean tto be working, packing and NOT convinceme'ing!!

 
vancam
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: jjc Show

Gotcha, you are probably more or less right. I would still be interesting to see conflicting research on the topic. Since I am sure there is some.

 
gogopoet
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
The last report I heard on Good Morning America still has a gap of twenty cents on the dollar between men's and women's pay. Part of that was ascribed to women being less asserrtive in demanding more money.

 
thethinker
Aug 17, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Why is equality such an important thing? Why do the feminists argue tha women=men? They have differences, and trying to achieve "equality" is unfair and restrictive, not to mention counterintuitive and counterproductive.

 
thethinker
Aug 18, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

If they could prove that, sure that would be unjust because it's not merit based. What I have problem with are the extreme feminists who demand equality yet never advocate men's shelter (yes men are beaten, but they have nowhere to go. Feminists say it's ok and say that it was the man's fault).
So basically the feminist view of equality is absolutely unachievable unless we have a role reversal of men and women, which obviously screws people up unless everyone was like Shirley Schmidt. That's not true, so that kind of "equality" can't be achieved. Also, if I was hosting a show with same contnet as Oprah, even if I followed to the second, I would get the same pay. That's not equal, and men are getting the shorter end.

 
jjc
Aug 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

In all fairness they didn't say equality was not important, they posed a question as to why it was considered so important. Instead of answering it you sort of brushed it aside.

Did you read the article? It refutes some of the claims you are making. According to these researchers, in the urban centers of America, women are actually gettting paid better than men. Their research directly contradicts some of your assertions. While it is true that women are not paid the same as males on a macro level, in the urban markets they point out women in some age groups are paid better than males in the same group.

"According to an analysis of recent census data prepared by Queens College demographer Andrew A Beveridge, all women aged from 21 to 30 living in New York City and working full time made 117 per cent of men's wages. "

 
durani3
Aug 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I do believe some women are treated differently whilst working and may be payed less.

 
thethinker
Aug 19, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

1. Look at the news story. BIG success for the feminists demanding equality, now men are being paid less.
2. Because extreme feminists slash everything and everyone that advocates for men and call it oppression, stereotyping, or conforming to social expecteations.
3. Well then leave the men alone. Don't call them oppressors and things. Don't threaten to sue if they are not elected.
4. Feminists stereotyping men is also quite annoying. Also I get a feeling that extreme feminists like to use stereotyping charges a lot. Why is it that they can't recognize the fundamental differences? They read Dilbert and think that Tina is stereotyping women, so the author made Antina, but got MORE stereotyping charges. Men and women have different behaviors from birth. That surely isn't a result of social stereotyping.
5. I am sorry I didn't present this right. The point is, there are places where women have the advantage.
So my point is that maybe it's better to recognize and work with the difference rather than ignoring them and demanding "equality".

 
thethinker
Aug 20, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

1. So you basically are willing to overlook the monopoly of extremist feminist rhetorics? Or is it not success until it's like that everywhere?
2. Or I am just using your logic against you. I am arguing for recognition of diversity. Extremists are ignoring differences and pressing on.
3. And if you don't what makes you think that there are going to be less domestic violece against men? You are saying you can't do everything for the other gender but you are actually stopping us from reasonable self defense against DV.
4. Extreme feminists: probably a lot. Just look at the news story. Would companies be twisted into paying women more if the feminists were simply going for equal pay or diversity?
5. So here's how our views meet. I say celebrate diversity. I am not advocating anyone oppressing anyone else. I advocate that we recognize what each gender is good at and encourage that growth. I think the first step is to recognize that there is a difference, and the first step to that is to be ready. That's why I oppose those who say: gender doesn't matter, which I see advocated by extremists sometime. I think moderate feminist is good, but there is a line that neither should cross.
6. Not really. Read some of the books.
7. They are not more valuable! Bill O'Reilly can't run shows like Oprah, and Oprah doesn't yell at people like Dr. Phil. It's when Oprah becomes like Dr. Phil or Dr. Phil becomes like Oprah and still demand demand equal pay that it's going over the edge.
8. Can I say then, that every evidence on your side is an exception?
9. Yup. That's what we should all strive for. But extreme feminist (not moderate, just extreme ones) actions are just going in the other direction. They say, we are women, so you must hire us, pay us more, and elect us. That's what I object, because it becomes an oppression by the feminists.

 


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