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The death of Grammar
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rhys
Jun 26, 2007
15 votes
14 debaters
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1
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13
The death of grammar is a shame!


dirtpatch
Jun 27, 2007
4 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: rhys Show

like, i dont know, um, see,,like when some one uses,like uhm,a word over and over its ,like, annoying.

What we should be concerned with is the fact that this type of speech pattern is used as filler, when they have to think about what they MEAN to say,,,kids should be taught to form their thoughts before they speak.

which is a better conveyance of my thought?
like, i dont know, you know, the car, was like ,kinda big,and like,red.
or
The car was big and red.
but you cant blame the kids. The schools that a vast majority attend, namely public, only teach kids recitation skills, not critical thinking skills. very rarely now adays are kids challenged to form their own thoughts, instead they are given a set of data, and then told to regurgitate said data.

For instance, when i was high school, we had a poem by robert frost as an assignment. the next day the teacher devoted an entire class to a discussion about what we felt the poem meant.
My son is now in high school, and recently had the same poem as an assignment. the difference?
along with the xeroxed copy of said poem, came a "descriptor" sheet, that just flat out told the kids what images to be aware of, and what the poem was trying to convey.and his "home work" which was a worksheet with 10 questions of such mind challenging questions as
"what was robert frosts middle name?"
"what year was robert frost born?"
"what images did frost use to convey his message?"
this type of teaching leads to a nation)or nations) of educated idiots,, they know without knowing.

and the repeated use of verbage such as like, i dont know, you know,,et.al. is merely a symptom.

 
unlabled00
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
One of my big pet peeves is how pre-teens or teen's keep using phrases such as "like" or "and then" over and over in a single "sentence".

I'm a teenager and I find it utterly ridiculous that people find the need to talk like valley girls....

 
tggdan3
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: rhys Show

WTF? why u H8 TXT MSG? U can read this as well as other msgs! LOL.

I agree with you, though we have to admit that some text stuff like LOL and WTF have made it into every day writing.

 
reezer
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: rhys Show

Fine: next time you have to type up a school paper or resume, see how far you get with chatspeak.

 
juggernaut
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

Slang is sneaking itself into our dictionary, as we speak.

 
unlabled00
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

I'm not quite sold on the endearing part of it, forgive me for saying so.

Theres a time and place for 1337-speak (pronounced leet-speek), and thats pretty much solely in online or text conversations. Even then the only reason people still use words like "h4x0r" (hacker) is because its been granted somewhat of a cult status.

However, honestly, I want to zap someone with a tazer whenever they say "lawl", "roffle", "lemao", or "burrrb" (i'm spelling these phonetically) in verbal conversation... verbal representation of acronyms give me the chills

 
unlabled00
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

I can see it now "kids stop speaking Base-8 and speak ENGLISH!... back in my day *mumble mumble*"

 
tggdan3
Jun 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: vancam Show

I agree with you as far as the writing- to a point. I would hate to read a book in TXTing speak, for example, and I would hate sentences

He didn't like the way he took his sandwich and hid it in his room without telling him about it.

Whose room is the sandwich in? Whose sandwich is it? Are there 2 people here or 1?

That's why grammer is important.

 
somerandomhobo
Jun 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Your grammar shapes how others perceive you. Go ahead and use whatever grammar you like, but remember that others will judge you accordingly.

If you use poor grammar around your friends, that may be fine, but what will happen if you are unable to speak or write English correctly at a job interview, on an exam, in court, or in a speech to Congress?

In other words, if you use poor grammar, that is your choice. It only makes you look stupid.

 
cbart95
Jul 01, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: rhys Show

Yes. Well, it is true that the subject is "grammar",but in the rest of the world that includes speech as well as written language. We realize you Aussies only include written words as "grammar"...that's what make you so charming to all of us...that and your habit of correcting the thoughts of non-Aussies.

Now, as to "relevance": Is there any reason we need to communicate with you in all capital letters?
Or is that just more of your legendary tolerance of the rest of all of us non-Aussies?

 
absolutetara
Aug 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
According to the Mehrabian communication research, 55% of meaning in communication is conveyed by facial expression, 38% of meaning is conveyed by tone and inflection (how words are said) and only 7% of meaning is conveyed by the actual words spoken. Considering today's society where we communicate more and more through text alone, proper grammar and thought into what words we choose to write is instrumental in effectively communicating our thoughts and ideas. Grammar is purposeful, it's not aesthetic. Textspeak and 7337speak is okay for casual conversation, but proper english is necessary for important communication.

 
bionicseahorse
Apr 01, 2008
0 convinced
Rebuttal
My college English teacher informed me that I write "really good" and I almost killed her in front of multiple witnesses.

 
Dhruv Gupta
May 15, 2015
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Well, the brain can't form coherent sentences that fast when in verbal dialogue. I also detest chat short-forms, lol and all is fine but what idk? Grammar still survives in books though.

 
Dhruv Gupta
May 15, 2015
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Well, the brain can't form coherent sentences that fast when in verbal dialogue. I also detest chat short-forms, lol and all is fine but what idk? Grammar still survives in books though.

 
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2
Grammar is over rated!


vancam
Jun 27, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: tggdan3 Show

I rather like watching our language evolve and I see how it can change everyday. New words are added into the Oxford dictionary all the time and America has invented it's own version of English.

When I talk to my young nephew and neice they use txt speak and I find it heartwarming to watch. Some of the ways they shorten words and create the phonetics using numbers is very clever and witty I feel.

In regards to grammar well, I never really got it anyway. I don't think grammar has any place in creative writing only in formal writing.

 
gogopoet
Jun 28, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
This is another debate framed around a false assumption. Grammer is still very much alive and well. Humans cannot escape that. It is an inherant part of language. Language isn't static though, and thus, neither is grammer. It evolves and changes with each generation. TXTing has inspired an entirely new language, but it has its rules if you take time to learn them. It's just MUCH more difficult for a mature brain to acquire new languages.

 
rhys
Jun 26, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
young people are using grammar less and less. text messages would be an example of a world where grammar is DEAD.

but i think this is over rated. the purpose of grammar is to accurately communicate a message. if the message can be communicated without grammar then there is no use for it!
thank you.

 
juggernaut
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

I use the word "such as", instead of "like". I oppose of the brain-dead teen talk, as well.

 
vancam
Jun 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: unlabled00 Show

I just see it as the next level of development. Gaelic and Celtic mixed with Norman and Roman to create English over time. Many words were shortened and subtely changed to make the language easier. This is just the next step of that change. Honestly a few generations from now might be complaining that kids these days only use binary why can't they stick to the normal alphabet... youngsters! huh

 
vancam
Jun 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: tggdan3 Show

Sure, but some of my favourite books use phonetics to give it a regional sound. Terry Pratchett is very good at playing with the form of words in that way.

 
rhys
Jun 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dirtpatch Show

I'm sorry, i didn't realize that the word "like" is a form of grammar.

I'd also encourage you not to make blanket statements on the entire schooling system. schools are different and country's are different. in Australia, i actually do not know anyone who uses the word "like" in that context. Also the assignments that i completed in school were the opposite to what you described.

I also dont see how SPEECH patterns relate to this debate as we are discussing grammar in the WRITTEN context.

In case you havent noticed, i havent used any apostrophes in this rebuttal, that proves that the correct use of grammar is not necessary to communicate effectively.

Do you have anything RELEVANT to say?

 
rhys
Jun 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: tggdan3 Show

Yes. I agree that some grammar is still important. But some of it, like the apostrophe has become obsolete. Language is constantly evolving as others have pointed out so how can you contain it in set rules? they need to be flexible and change with the language.

I have this great book called "Eats shoots and leaves" written by a grammar stickler who bemoans the death of punctuation. Its hilarious. Although i cannot relate.

 
gogopoet
Jun 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: somerandomhobo Show

RE: "It only makes you look stupid."

It only makes you look ignorant. Ain't you got NO larnin? LOL kddg.

 
thewhitedwarf
Jul 02, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
premise 1 the purpose of any langauge is to communicate

-humans allocate responsiblities, etc through communication

-grammar simply came after langauge to modify it to make it universal and more logical but initially language existed before grammar and thus grammar does not inhibit its goal

premise 2 bad grammar (dep on severity) does not inhibit communication

-you still get the jist of what the person is saying
-all socities in some way change langauge through dialect or something but retain normal communicative abilities

therefor, bad grammar still fullfills the purpose of communication and (pragmatically) can't be considered "bad"



 
rhys
Jul 02, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cbart95 Show

I'm glad you find me charming ;)

And i never said you had to communicate in capitals, but i enjoy using them from time to time.

ta ta!

 


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