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The Confederate Flag
History

reezer
Mar 25, 2007
22 votes
11 debaters
7
1


+ Add Argument

11
Heritage, not hate


cloudburst2000
Mar 26, 2007
1 convinced
Rebuttal
Okay, I'm not saying the government should proudly display the Confederate flag on top of courthouses or anything. However, the flag is a large part of the history of this country. It should not be banned or outlawed. It is a part of history. It might represent a bleak part of the history of the US, but it is a part of US history regardless.

And yes, I'm sure the KKK and skinheads, etc have used the confederate flag at their meetings or whereever. However, during the Crusades, they marched a cross in front of them during battle while they slaughtered thousands of people. Does that mean that the cross should be banned too?

 
awlasirius
Mar 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
was the flag even a symbol of the klan?

 
dereksemeraro
Mar 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: reezer Show

Don't compare the Nazis and the KKK. All KKK members devote their lives to killing people out of racist motives. Most Nazis are innocent people being commanded by Hitler, do or die.

 
dast
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Sorry, dude. KKK =/= Confederate flag.

Confederacy = confederate flag.

And yes, it was a major part of US history.
More died in that war, than in all the others combined?

The US Constitution got ripped up pretty bad, never yet recovered, because of that war, too. The flag stands for the principles the USofA was built on, and which Lincoln and the North left.

I am clear that it is offensive to some, but understand that many are still offended by the stars and stripes, too.

 
cloudburst2000
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

If you're saying that the the southern states ceding from the Unionand the Civil War was not a HUGE part of American history then you need to refresh your history. It doesn't matter that it wasn't a huge period of time, but it had DRAMATIC effects on the nation. That is what I mean by a huge part of history. The Civil War was the bloodiest war in all of American history. That too me is a huge part of history.

 
cloudburst2000
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: reezer Show

Are you from the South by any chance? I have family from both the South and the North. I had family who fought on both sides of the war. I don't feel ashamed of the family members who fought on the side of the South. They were defending their homes. I don't see a problem with that. They weren't fighting to preserve slavery, they were fighting to defend their homes and families. The vast majority of the people who fought for the South did not even have slaves. They were mostly poor farmers who were defending their homes. I have no problem with someone who had a family member who fought and died during the war showing a flag in rememberance of lost family members. People shouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that just because someone displays the flag that they supported slavery or whatever. Talk about stereotyping. I do think however that their are appropriate and inappropriate ways to display the flag. If it's displayed tastefully in some type of memorial then I have no problems with it whatsoever. That said, I don't agree with people who display the flag because they believe in white supremacy....or display it in inappropriate ways like the Dukes of Hazzard car. However, it's a free country so that is still their right.

Everyone thinks that the Civil War was all about slavery. Slavery was actually only one small piece of the war. It's just the piece that people seem to remember almost 150 years later. The major part of the war had to do with economics. The South, up until that point, had been the economic leader of the nation. However, the North was becoming more industrialized and was starting to emerge as the new economic leader of the nation. The South was basically having problems admitting that they were no longer the leaders of the nation so they basically started a war over it. Yes, slavery did play it's part in the war, but economics was the big reason for the war.

 
cloudburst2000
Mar 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: reezer Show

Some people consider the cross offensive. The cross is the symbol of Christianity, but some people only look at the cross and see all the countless people that have been killed in its name. Does the fact that some people who find the cross offensive mean it should not be displayed...no. And people keep talking about how the KKK uses the confederate flag as one of their main symbols. Did you know thta their main symbol is, in fact, THE CROSS. What do you think they burned all those poor people on. What was it that they would burn in the yards of people who were of color or who supported black rights...that's right. It was a cross. That still doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to display a cross though.

The same goes for the Confederate flag. Yes, some people might find it offensive, but the people displaying it do not always mean for it to be offensice. I do think they are appropriate and inappropriate ways to display the flag. In a memorial to lost soldiers/family members is fine. Those people who died even on the side of the confederacy had families too. Just assuming that someone who displays the flag means it as a slap in the face to blacks is an erroneous generalization. Sure some of them might mean it that way, but some just mean it as a memorial to those who were lost during an extremely bloody war. It all comes down to how it is displayed, IMHO. Displaying it like on the Dukes of Hazzard car is extremely tacky and I don't agree with it there, but tastefully displaying it in a memorial of some type is fine by me.


 
lostinlodos
Mar 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
I hate bigots. And my blood is as muddied as it could be. BUT: There is a key fact that is often ignored by history books. Originally the constitution gave the state(s) the right to leave the Union if they so chose to. The civil war was an illicit and illegal act against a sovereign nation, the Confederate States of America. With that in mind, as much as I disagree with what it stands for, it is the history of that short lived country.

 
lostinlodos
Mar 31, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: gogopoet Show

I was not supporting the people who put it on their licence plates and drive around with the hang the N$^^%# bumper stickers. Not by any stretch. I'm not sure what a proper setting for a display would be, but I am against banning anything. Some common sense is needed with things like the "Stars and Bars"
Who started the war will be debated for ever. My own family was on both sides of that war and still argue a little over who started; it to this day.
Places in Eastern Europe and Northern Asia still fly the Flag of the Soviet Socialist Union. And I have no problem with that either. Some places in Japan still fly the Imperial flag as well.
Banning the S&B Southern Jack is treading on freedom of speech. Freedom is what this great country is all about. And the one flag that I proudly display is the Freedom Snake, *Don't Tread On Me". A flag banned some states for it's latter out-of-context usage. I'll fight for my flag, and have. I understand the southerners fighting for their history and I respect that.

 
kenski70
Mar 31, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Just an observation.....The are no KKK or skin head presence where i live. I do see documentries on the history channel about both..... Ive noticed far more stars and stripes flags at those rallies than stars and bars.

 
xxcommunistcatxx
May 10, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
ok lets get one thing strait, the u.s. constitution says that if the gov. is not working you not only have the right but the responsibility to rebel agenst it.
the south is taking pride in the fact that they followed the constitution. the war was not even about slaves. it was about the gov. making reforms for the northern factorys and not the southern farms. the slavery thing was just the last straw.the flag has nothing to do with the swastika. it had nothing to do with genicide. why you are comparing it with that i have know idea.

 
thedecider
Jul 01, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: reezer Show

Interesting that you say that. In 2007 the Sons of Confederate Veterans copyrighted the flag and it is not to be used in any sort of hate rally. Also, it wasn't used by the Klan until the 1970s and also I'm a Confederate re-enactor and I fly it. Does that mean I'm a member of the Klan or I hate everyone who isn't a WASP? No, because I am proud of my ancestors who fought under the flag.

 
thedecider
Jul 01, 2009
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: reezer Show

It was also the fact that Lincoln basically wiped his feet on the Constitution. He used the US Army to fight against US citizens, which is illegal by the Constitution. Also, these people were defending their homes, imagine someone breaking down your door, what would you do??? Lincoln raised troops and so did Jefferson Davis.

 
+ Add Argument

11
Hate, not heritage


reezer
Mar 25, 2007
7 convinced
Rebuttal
All you Sons of the Confederacy/flag backers/Good Ol' Boys can honk all you want to about what the "Stars and Bars" is supposed to represent, but:

A) You lost the war. The losers in a war don't get to wave their battle flag around after the fact. This would be like a bunch of Boston bluebloods waving the Union Jack around.

B) See: the Swastika. For thousands of years, it was a symbol of peace and good luck. Then the Nazis co-opted it as their symbol. You think anyone could get away now with calling a Swastika "not about hate" (even though the Asian swastika is made differently - the ends point counter-clockwise)?

Now, replace "swastika" with "flag" and "Nazis" with "the Klu Klux Klan".

Is there a real difference?

I have no doubt that many truly belive in the Confederate Flag as a symbol of a proud heritage. I say to you, SFW? For every one of you who is proud of the flag, there's 5000 that feel shame and hatred towards it.

 
reezer
Mar 25, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: awlasirius Show

Show me a Klan or Aryan Nation rally where the flag isn't prominently displayed.

 
reezer
Mar 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

The particular cross they used on those flags and banners? I wouldn't be surprised if it had been. You're using the generic to defend the specific, and that's just weak.

 
gogopoet
Mar 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

RE: "However, the flag is a large part of the history of this country."

That just isn't true. The War Between the States lasted a mere four years, 1861 to 1865. The flag now recognized as the Confederate Battle Flag was not actually a battle flag at all, but a naval jack which was only displayed when a ship was in port, so it could be identified as a warship. The Stars and Bars naval jack was not adopted by the Confederacy until 1863, although there were battle flags of similar appearance from the start.

The flag of controversy was used less than two years by a foreign nation, a nation defeated in battle. Two years is an insignificant part of our history. The first european settlement was established at present day St Augustine Fl in 1565. Spain maintained colonies in what is now the United States until 1898 when we drove the Spaniards out of present day Puerto Rico. THAT is a significant part of US history, but we don't see anyone running around waving the Spanish battle flags. How would you feel about our Tex-Mex citizens resurrecting Spanish battle flags?

 
reezer
Mar 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

And BTW, I'm not saying the flag should be banned, just that those who would display it with "pride" should stop claiming that people aren't/shouldn't be offended by it.

 
gogopoet
Mar 27, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dereksemeraro Show

That doesn't sound credible. Do you have any sources to document these claims especially considering that Hitler is dead?

 
reezer
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dereksemeraro Show

"The Nazis were just following orders?" Even if that were true (and I sincerely doubt that it is) this would somehow lessen the atrocities that the Nazis committed HOW?

If this is the best you can do for a rebuttal, you might as well stop now.



 
reezer
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

So what the hell does that have to do with whether or not the flag is considered offensive NOW?

 
reezer
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: dast Show

I point you - AGAIN - to the Nazi analogy. The swastika had been around for millennia. Check out shots of 20th century architecture. The swastika was a poplular design element. It has a much bigger claim to not being about hate than the Confederate flag does.

But do you think anyone will think anything other than "Nazi" when they see a swastika?

And, again I ask, what historical significance has to do with with it's offensiveness? "Birth of A Nation" is considered one of the greatest pieces of filmmaking from the early 20th century? Does it mean that it ISN'T basically a KKK propaganda film? Does it's historical value dimish it's offensiveness?

At best, to the average person, Confederate flag = Dukes of Hazzard. If that's your idea of "Proud Heritage", more power to you.

 
reezer
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

Yes - I'm from the South.

And you keep missing the point.

You cannot ignore what the flag is *now* (A banner held high by every racist organization in America. A symbol of hate and oppression) for what it*was* (First and foremost: the banner of the losing side)

I don't care who fought in the Civil War and what they were fighting for: I care who uses the flag now and why.

 
reezer
Mar 28, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

BTW, you prove the point about the war ultimately being about slavery: you say it was about economics? It was a system that was unsustainable without the use of slave labor.

 
reezer
Mar 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

The symbol of the KKK is not THE Cross, it's A cross.. Show me someone who seriously considers this:

http://www.apocatastasis.com/images/kkkk.jpg

To be the same as this

http://members.tripod.com/~LiberalCatholic/cross.GIF

And I'll show you a fool.

Besides, if you're going to try to stretch that point, the Nazi (them again!) used The Cross as well (Iron Cross anyone?).

And for the records, there are places where the cross is considered offensive (or at least disrespectul). And you know what? PEOPLE DON'T USE THE IMAGE OF THE CROSS THERE. (Ex. In Muslim countries, the Red Cross goes by the name "Red Crescent").

And again, it doesn't matter what the intent of the displayer was. If someone dresses in blackface as a tribute to Al Jolson, are people not supposed to get upset because his intent was not ot offend? Why is the Confederate flag different?

 
gogopoet
Mar 29, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: cloudburst2000 Show

The Klan doesn't use a simple cross, but rather a burning cross. The fire is a warning symbol. It speaks of the destruction they will bring if the person or persons warned don't clear out in a hurry. For the Klan, the Stars and Bars, is also a symbol, speaking of their hatred toward blacks.

 
gogopoet
Mar 30, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lostinlodos Show

Whether or not states had a constitutional means of withdrawing from the Union is a debate that has raged since the south did that. Legal scholars are no closer to a consens about that now as when it first came up. Asserting any conclusion about that debate one way or the other adds nothing to this debate.

As I recall, it was a Confederate soldier who touched the whole thing off by firing on a Union ship. According to what I understand about such things, that constitutes an act of war.

The history of that short-lived country is one thing. Resurrecting white supremacy in the name of that country is another thing altogether. The Confederate Naval Jack, or Stars and Bars, no longer represent that dead nation or its hiostory, but a desire to restore the subjugation of non-whites.

 
gogopoet
Mar 31, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: lostinlodos Show

I'm from the south and also had ancestors on both sides of the war. Those sides would still be fighting if they had any contact with each other.
The First Amendment arguement is the only one that carries any weight. I'm not sure it should apply to such an inflammatory symbol.

The problem I have with the Stars and Bars is that I cannot think of an instance in which it could be displayed without it representing a symbol of hatred for blacks and rebellion against the US Constitution. The First Amendment does not protect either of those so far as I can tell, but now we are getting into one of those grey areas of the law that I doubt either of us is qualified to argue.

 
gogopoet
Apr 01, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
Rebuttal to: kenski70 Show

I live in Klan country and I'm old enough to remember the cross burnings and hangings, etc. Now days most of those guys with the white hoods are too cowardly to carry out their terror plots. They just express thier sentiments by displaying the Stars and Bars.

 
tggdan3
Jun 05, 2007
0 convinced
Rebuttal
There is no confederate heritage. The confederate states did not exist for a full generation, and it was far back enough that no one alive today lived during the civil war. It's people who are trying to make reference to the era where slavery was legal- which was the main reason the civil war started in the first place. You can't claim heritage in a place that your grandfather lived in for like 7 years.

 


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